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Billy Kramer

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    #1

    Feldgrau Uniform Question

    There are some very knowledgeable Feldgrau collectors here. I have a few tunics myself, but a friend in Germany has described a tunic that has me a bit baffled. The tunic is a M1915 Friedensuniform from the 21.Ulan Rgt. The odd thing about it are the shoulder straps. They are gray with red piping and a red arabic number 21. First of all, this regiment should have a cyphered shoulder strap. Secondly, the strap should be red with yellow piping and cypher. I checked my references, and there was also a 21.Res.Ulan Rgt., which could account for the lack of the cypher, but that still does not explain things, as I would think the strap would still have to have the 1915 Ulan color pattern (red strap with regimental piping color).

    The straps are sewn into the shoulder seams and appear to be of private purchase quality. Any thoughts on this? I do have a picture that I could e-mail if this would help. The only guess that I can come up with is that the straps were replaced at some point, though you could not tell it from the way they are attached to the tunic.

    Regards,
    Chip
    Tags: None
    #2
    Hey Chip:

    From the color combination on the straps, they are definately wrong for the tunic. As you stated, the straps would be red with yellow piping and cypher (or number). The only color combo I could find would be 1910 straps for Bayer. Rgmt Nr. 21. Also, I am guessing that the buttons on the tunic are silver. If so, this tunic could be attributed to either U.R.21 or U.R.15 if proper straps were located. Hope this helps.

    Dave

    Comment

      #3
      Ulan Tunic

      Dave,
      Thanks for the reply. I was hoping you would see my post. If you would like to see this tunic, send my your e-mail address and I will forward it to you. The tunic is a beautiful thing, I just can't figure the straps out.

      Regards,
      Chip

      Comment

        #4
        Originally posted by Chip Minx
        First of all, this regiment should have a cyphered shoulder strap.
        You would expect the straps to be red on a Friedensrock, but I would not rule out a number instead of a cypher. The Sachsen Ulanen had a peculiar habit after 1910 of wearing numbered straps on the Dunkelblau Ulanka and possible as well (?) the Feldgrau Ulanka. Here is a pic of a quite rare example for Ulanen regt Nr. 17 to illustrate this habit by the Saxons. UR17 wore a cypher on the epaulette, but on this example, instead of the scaled brass epaulettes there is a strap of the same blue material, piped in white with a white #17. these straps are also displayed in Ingolstadt at the Bayern Armee museum and I saw a set on display in Rastatt last May. I have only ever located one photo of this pattern of Ulanka in wear. If the straps on this Feldgrau Ulanka that Chip is talking about are the same material as the tunic, then perhaps it could be correct?



        Comment

          #5
          Feldgrau Ulanka

          Tony,

          You can count out the Feldgrau Saxon service Ulanka having numbered straps for cyphered regiments. I have a 1910 issue pattern strap for the 21.Ulan Regiment. It is Feldgrau with yellow piping, red cypher and crown. It is the pointed, not the pear-shaped style, as it should be for Saxon Ulans. Look in the 1912 Ruhl plates by Major Schmidt. He shows both the 17th and the 21st Ulans with the cyphers. The same thing is shown in the plates in Kraus.

          Is your Ulanka from the 17th an issue piece with dates or unit markings? Das Deutsche Heer describes the straps that are on the tunic as those for the Mantel or Litewka. Perhaps this is a class of wear similar to walking out dress. I suspect that the metal epaulettes were just for gala, parade and other public events. There are certainly are no bridals for the epaulettes on your Ulanka.

          It would be nice to have some information on this subject that is more than anecdotal. I know I have seen something on this subject before, but I cannot remember the source. So Tony, I think you are right about the Saxons routinely doing this, I just don't know why.

          Even if a numbered strap is OK for the 1915 Friedensuniform, the red "21" on a gray strap with red piping appears to be a tailor's interpretation and nothing official.

          Thanks,
          Chip

          Comment

            #6
            Hi Chip. I agree. I have seen the 1910 and 1915 issue pattern straps for UR21. Sadly I am not as fortunate as you to have a M10, my Ulanen examples are M1915s. I was offering that if the Saxons did this odd numbered strap routine with the Dunkelblau Ulanka, then perhaps it could have been done on a Friedensrock Ulanka as well. But you are correct, this is just conjecture.

            My Ulanka above is an Eigentumsstück. As I mentioned, I have only been able to track down one photo of this strap in use. I can send some more pics of these Ulanka straps to you at home if you wish, clearly made the same time as the Ulanka, identical ribbed twill body and piping material; it is tres cool! Tony

            Comment

              #7
              Ulanen Rgt.Nr.17

              Tony,

              It looked like your Ulanka was a private purchase piece, but I thought I would ask. I'm sure you would have mentioned any markings that might have be pertinent to the discussion. Of course, I am not questioning that the straps belong on the tunic. Just trying to figure out why they are. Since it is a private purchase piece, perhaps there might be something to the idea that it is an "extra" tunic for certain occasions. I also once heard that recruiters could wear this pattern strap. Anyway, since the major references don't mention anything, it may be a while before we find an answer.

              Thanks,
              Chip

              Comment

                #8
                I know this is drifting from your original question, but I thought it might be interesting to see the photo I was referring to. Unfortunately, a little out-of-focus, but clear enough to see the critical detail. Note the Sachsen Ulanen Portepee-Unteroffizier on the left is wearing this pattern of Dunkelblau Ulanka with straps. Note, however, that the fellow to his right is wearing the standard Ulanka without the epaulettes. You can see the loops for them on his shoulders. I would like very much to find out what this was allowed and under what circumstances etc. I'll e-mail some close-ups of the straps on this Ulanka to you. Really interesting. Tony

                <img src="http://www.kaisersbunker.com/stuff/ur17a.jpg"

                Comment

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Chip Minx
                  I would think the strap would still have to have the 1915 Ulan color pattern (red strap with regimental piping color). The straps are sewn into the shoulder seams and appear to be of private purchase quality.
                  Chip & Dave, and anyone else who finds this interesting............

                  Have a look at this photo which just arrived. Unfortunately it is not one of the two Sachsen cyphered Ulanen regts, but it is interesting. It does not appear to be the red M1915 straps, it appears to be the same color as the Ulanka, pointed, with #18 for Ulanen Regt Nr. 18.

                  <img src="http://www.kaisersbunker.com/stuff/UR18a.jpg">

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Tony,
                    It is an interesting photo, but it's a M08 Ulanka, so I doubt you would ever see any M15 straps on one, except possibly on some of the last ones made in 1915-16. This strap would fall into the same category as the M08 (M10) 21st regiment strap that I mentioned earlier.

                    Chip

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Chip Minx
                      Tony,
                      This strap would fall into the same category as the M08 (M10) 21st regiment strap that I mentioned earlier.
                      Exactly. Which is why I thought you might find it interesting. T

                      Comment

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