I posted my concerns in the TR part of the forum but need to place it here as well due to the era. I defer to someone who is more knowledgeable in this area. I have a pretty expensive cap and on the onset it looks good. But after removing the cockade I just don't see the color variation I'd like to see behind the emblem. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I just can't get the thought of artificial aging out of my mind. And the interior just doesn't have that smell, and you die hard cap collectors know what I mean. This was purchased of eBay.de along with the officers twin version that sold for over 2500.00 which ironically I was able to inspect but will defer my opinion on that cap until I can get some opinions on this EM version. I'll start off with the internal makers label first. Thank you in advance
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As you can clearly see, dirt is surrounding just the perimeter of the cockade and not uniformly dirty. I've seen this commonly on TR caps which are poorly faked, and this being off white makes it particularly noticeable. Again, I may be just paranoid, but I like to be sure of this. -
underside of supposed wear spot where its been supposedly been taken on and off many, many timesLast edited by R.Beck; 01-07-2015, 05:31 PM.Comment
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prior to removing strap.Comment
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Odd that nobody offers opinion.Comment
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First, I think no one has ventured an opinion because there is not much knowledge out there about this branch's caps. If you need an opinion, OK I'll give one, for what it's worth....
First, I know very little about this area, but I have seen a lot of imperial German militaria over a span of many years. All I can say is that I like the gray corduroy material. This type of material had been in use for some time before the war. I also like the fact that the moths have been interested in the cap. I also like the visor, chinstrap and side button. The lining looks a bit strange to me, in that it appears like it is loose, that is, the material is not tight, like there is excess, but it is a private purchase piece. See Batl. caps are more like army caps than they are navy caps. So, I have no squabbles with the visor and general style.
I have an overall good impression of the cap. If there are more learned opinions, I would be happy to hear them.
ChipComment
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Another thought would be that since this material was also worn in Africa, wasn't there a colony (Togo?) where the cap would have had all white piping and band? Just trying to think of all possibilities.
ChipComment
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Thanks Chip for weighing in. Of paramount concern other than the pleats not having a hard press, were in fact the buttons. I've owned and handled roughly a dozen plus genuine kaiserliche marine caps, and while this in its own rite doesn't make me an expert on the subject, but I've never seen direct or indirectly kaiser crown visor cap buttons that had a spreader pin. Do they exist?? Can I say with a 100% certainlty that this is either a complete dirtied up replica or a franky? No. But considering the amount spent on this cap I can't sleep well without being 100% certain this is the real deal.Originally posted by Chip M View Post
On a side note, if it only cost me a few hundred bucks, then perhaps I wouldn't care or be in such a hurry to discount as being a fake, but 1200 is just too much to sit on without knowing for sure.Comment
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Is the white piping cleaner towards the seems? I like the material.
Is the heavy staining to the front around the cockade all or is there grime on the field grey?Comment
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CCJ, lets be honest here. I too like the material because its exactly how it should be. What I don't like is the fact that dirt was intentionally placed around the cockade in order to make the cockade appear that its been there since day one.
Personally? If I was faking a hat and wanted it to appear original and not raise flags, I would have made the entire white band evenly dirty as to be completely convincing and then we wouldn't be having this conversation because I most likely would have fallen for that trick and simply discounted the odd visor cap buttons and unpressed pleats.
That dirt and an original set of hard to get gold plated kaiser crown buttons and I would have fallen hook, line and sinkerComment
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Seebataillon Visor
I have looked at and owned many Imperial German hats over my collecting endeavors and this one looks good to my eye. There are many elements that reinforce this. First is the material as Chip has already discussed in detail. Second is the maker logo in the hat dates it to being made during the Kaiser era not post WW1. Third, the absence of a hole from the second cockade would say if not a Seebataillon, then what? The chinstrap is great. Clearly not new. The wear spot on the underside of the visor would be a stretch for me to believe it was from taking it on and off. If that were the case I would expect the hat lining to also be very very worn. I would suspect something became adhered to the cap visor and an attempt was made to scrape it off. I also have no opinion on the soiling around the cockade. It would, however, not bother me.
JeffComment
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I am going to throw in here. Overall, I think the cap looks good. For every problem, we can come up with many explanations for how it could be fake or authentic. So until we find something conclusive, there will always be doubt.
So lets try to find that.....
In cases where the cloth looks good, it is best to focus on the leather. Is the leather sweatband brittle? From the breaks, it looks brittle and this is an important point. The sweatband looks to perfectly fit the cap. Very often, when a cap is put together with old parts it is an ill fitting sweatband that can give it away.
So here is my point.....If the leather is supple, it could have been resewn. If it is brittle as it appears, it could not have been resewn, especially in the fashion it was constructed, being stitched and then folded over. If this old brittle leather is original to this cap, then the cap is authentic.
Now, if the leather is not brittle, yet not completely supple either, the breaks could have been caused when the old band was sewn into the cap, and then folded over.
I believe this is the area you need to investigate. As far as the cockade goes, I would not worry about that. It could have been put on a month ago and the cap may still be original. As for the buttons with the split pin backs, I don't know about German caps, but they were commonly used on Austrian caps, even prior to the war. I would not be concerned with the buttons either.
Good luck!Comment
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Thanks Jeff, Brian and Chip (hope I didn't leave anyone out)
It seems the general consensus without u folks having the cap in hand, is that all but one member seems to be ok with it. Ironically the one highly prolific member here seems to think its a Frankenstein cap due mainly in part to its pleats. I've held it, examined it and yes, even smelled it. I've asked for opinions and you've all greatly exceeded my expectations although it started off quite quietly lol.
I guess I was hoping to get Tony to weigh in and put the final nail in the coffin, but I'm sure he's probably busy.
I like this cap, but the interior??
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Original-Schi...item20f452fa60Last edited by R.Beck; 01-12-2015, 06:32 PM.Comment
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We are a funny lot
Ron, Funny, I do like hat you linked except for the wool body. I have never seen an Imperial hat with this type of "furry" wool. Many reproduction mutzen were made with this wool. I will be interested in what others think. Also, with all the wear to the liner how did the light interior stayed so clean? JeffLast edited by Jeff Noll; 01-13-2015, 12:54 AM.Comment
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Originally posted by Jeff Noll View Post
Exactly Jeff! I find this odd as well. The cap that started this thread had no dirt or old smell to the interior at all and this most recent cap I linked to that is for sale now, has a spiffy clean interior.
Beat to Hell leather sweatband and minty linerComment
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