Camo Helmet Find In France

[Chris Boonzaier]

"IMO, this is not evidence that camo helmets were so widespread in 1918, it is simply evidence that the unit that abandonned all these helmets in the same place was probably a more elite type unit that had decided to camouflage all its helmets.

Bingo. Well, almost. evidence that this unit did it. does not make them elite.

[Hoss]

I've heard, and seen a photo of, actual units of German soldiers that did nothing but sit behind the lines and paint helmets. I suppose its possible this could have been a place several of them were left in a retreat?

Where,s this photo, in a publication?

Eric

[RelicHunter]

Where,s this photo, in a publication?

Eric

I think I remember seeing it in an auction. I saved it on my computer because it looked interesting. It looks legit to me, but I'm not a photo historian expert. Here it is:

[Hoss]

I think I remember seeing it in an auction. I saved it on my computer because it looked interesting. It looks legit to me, but I'm not a photo historian expert. Here it is:

Wow
Hey thanks man
Now that is an interesting photo. Top draw mate.

Eric

[Jean-Loup]

"In your opinion, do you think more WW1 camo helmets turn up as bring backs in the States because the US force tended to oppose Germans in a more wooded terrian, often in defensive positions?"

I dont think the type of fighting by US forces has much to do with it, I think that camo helmets were very attractive, even at the time, making good souvenirs. Also, the US only came late in the war, and so its soldiers missed out on souvenir hunting during many years when camo helmets did not exist.
Helmets that can be found in France are not souvenir helmets like the ones brought back to the US, they are mostly 'trash' that was lyng around, regarless of wether it was camo or not.


"Bingo. Well, almost. evidence that this unit did it. does not make them elite. "

Indeed Chris, I realised that myself after writing it. Camo helmets can mean elit troops... or troops that had nothing better to do then spend time decorating their helmets... or troops in training... or who knows what scenario.

JL

[Hoss]

Jean
I found that in England as a kid. Most m16,s were battered and reeked of death!
Tommy tended to favour a pickel as a souvenir. I remember very few were camos and didnt follow the ordered paint pattern.
Where abouts are you in Southern France? I like it down there and could learn to love escargot if I dropped in?

Eric

[90th Light]

This is a great thread which shows the finding today of helmets buried by one of the following units during the retreat of 1918 so they would not fall into enermy hands. The photo shown in post number 48 shows such a "B?A" unit in work in progress at the front;

"BKA" who procurred and arranged the distrbution of helmets
"BJA" who took in and repaired leather, steel & other items
"BIA" who took in and repaired leather, steel & other items

Now it surprises me to say the least that collectors who have such an interest in German helmets and their camos seem to have no knowledge of these units and yet if you read what is on "Colonel- J's" site in the activities section under "Depot Marks" you will see that the BKA, BJA & BIA were expanded in the early years of the war to regiment size of which there were several regiments under the command of a colonel with a unit structure which stretched from factories in Germany to the distribution and collection of German helmets at the front line.

Now if this existed for Pickelhaube in 1915 to 1917 then these are the very units who handled the distribution and recovery of the steel helmets M16, 17 & 18. They would have also have handled the logistics of getting and distributing the paint. Note also that the BJA & BIA purpose was repair and one can see a picture in Colonal- J's "Depot Marks" article show a the men in a depot with all the Pickelhaubes on the shelves and various other bits of equipment and uniform on the ground and tables in front of them.

Several of these depots were over-run by the NZ soldiers during the the rapid retreat of the Germans after the failure of "Operation Michael" in 1918. New Zealand soldiers of the NZEF were vanguard troops in this advance and I have had several camo helmets (directly from veterans or the NZ war trophy unit) over the years picked up at this time esp' from the depots which had no time to dispose of their inventory before being over-run.

Another thing that Colonel- J reports in that "Depot Marks" articles is that German soldiers never had an exclusive right to their helmets and had to hand them in at all times for re-issue. Now if the BKA, BJA & BIA are doing this for Pickelhaube in 1915/ 16 then you can also picture that they are doing it for M16's, 17's & 18's and that they are the ones charged with the responsibility to get the camo on the helmets or make sure they can be made camo as per official orders i.e. supply needed paint to front line units. They also would have collected any now obsolete Pickelhaube and progressively moved them back behind the lines and into storerooms/ warehouses in Germany.

Keep in mind too that the Germans never had enough M16's, 17's & 18's to cover the needs of front line troops so there is a real need to keep collecting, repairing and reissuing steel helmets. This is exactly what the BKA, BJA & BIA did before the war with Pickelhaubes and it is exactly what they were expanded to do during the war (and not only helmets but all sorts of uniform items & equipment) .

More research of these units is the answer to who put the camo on German WW1 helmets, when they put the camo on and why they camo what for who.

Excellent thread gentlemen, excellent images, excellent find in France.

Thank you for posting,

Chris

[Hoss]

circa: 1916 (IWM)

[Hoss]

Moyennville POW: august 1918 (IWM)

[Hans K.]

This is a great thread which shows the finding today of helmets buried by one of the following units during the retreat of 1918 so they would not fall into enermy hands. The photo shown in post number 48 shows such a "B?A" unit in work in progress at the front;

"BKA" who procurred and arranged the distrbution of helmets
"BJA" who took in and repaired leather, steel & other items
"BIA" who took in and repaired leather, steel & other items

Now it surprises me to say the least that collectors who have such an interest in German helmets and their camos seem to have no knowledge of these units and yet if you read what is on "Colonel- J's" site in the activities section under "Depot Marks" you will see that the BKA, BJA & BIA were expanded in the early years of the war to regiment size of which there were several regiments under the command of a colonel with a unit structure which stretched from factories in Germany to the distribution and collection of German helmets at the front line.

Now if this existed for Pickelhaube in 1915 to 1917 then these are the very units who handled the distribution and recovery of the steel helmets M16, 17 & 18. They would have also have handled the logistics of getting and distributing the paint. Note also that the BJA & BIA purpose was repair and one can see a picture in Colonal- J's "Depot Marks" article show a the men in a depot with all the Pickelhaubes on the shelves and various other bits of equipment and uniform on the ground and tables in front of them.

Several of these depots were over-run by the NZ soldiers during the the rapid retreat of the Germans after the failure of "Operation Michael" in 1918. New Zealand soldiers of the NZEF were vanguard troops in this advance and I have had several camo helmets (directly from veterans or the NZ war trophy unit) over the years picked up at this time esp' from the depots which had no time to dispose of their inventory before being over-run.

Another thing that Colonel- J reports in that "Depot Marks" articles is that German soldiers never had an exclusive right to their helmets and had to hand them in at all times for re-issue. Now if the BKA, BJA & BIA are doing this for Pickelhaube in 1915/ 16 then you can also picture that they are doing it for M16's, 17's & 18's and that they are the ones charged with the responsibility to get the camo on the helmets or make sure they can be made camo as per official orders i.e. supply needed paint to front line units. They also would have collected any now obsolete Pickelhaube and progressively moved them back behind the lines and into storerooms/ warehouses in Germany.

Keep in mind too that the Germans never had enough M16's, 17's & 18's to cover the needs of front line troops so there is a real need to keep collecting, repairing and reissuing steel helmets. This is exactly what the BKA, BJA & BIA did before the war with Pickelhaubes and it is exactly what they were expanded to do during the war (and not only helmets but all sorts of uniform items & equipment) .

More research of these units is the answer to who put the camo on German WW1 helmets, when they put the camo on and why they camo what for who.

Excellent thread gentlemen, excellent images, excellent find in France.

Thank you for posting,

Chris

Chris, don't make the mistake of assuming that what applies to Pickelhauben must also be true for steel helmets.

Contrary to what you think, there is no great mystery as to where damaged steel helmets were sent and who worked on them. At the lowest level, the troops themselves as well as front-line workshops were allowed to repair minor damage as long as no application of heat or hammering of the steel was required. The Armee-Verwaltungs-Department stated that, as of June 1917, the autogenous welding of damaged areas as a means of repair was no longer allowed.

Helmets of the fallen were collected and delivered to Gruppenmaterialien depots. There were various materiel depots across Germany that helmets were sent to for repairs. Each division had its own materiel depot where it could requisition reworked helmets which the depot would provide from their stores. As of November 1917, all damaged helmets were to be sent to the"Stahlhelmausbesserungswerkstatt" (steel helmet repair workshop) at the Nebenbekleidungsamt in Metz-Monteningen.

Your statement that soldiers had to hand in their helmets when ordered to do so is not true for steel helmets. During the early stages in 1916 when helmets were still in short supply, they were considered part of the unit's stores and were rotated as needed. After that, the helmet was considered to be part of the soldier's personal equipment. In June 1917 the 4th Army did in fact order troops leaving their area of operations to hand in their helmets, and had to rescind the order after it was pointed out that equipment and helmets belonged to the soldier.

[Gustaf B]

In June 1917 the 4th Army did in fact order troops leaving their area of operations to hand in their helmets, and had to rescind the order after it was pointed out that equipment and helmets belonged to the soldier.

Hey Hans,
This would be supported by the number of helmets with the soldier's nam written in them, but I would argue that they did not own them, they were responsible for them.
Best
Gus

[Hans K.]

I agree Gus. I see the term "belonged to" in the same way you do.

Hans

[90th Light]

Chris, don't make the mistake of assuming that what applies to Pickelhauben must also be true for steel helmets.

Contrary to what you think, there is no great mystery as to where damaged steel helmets were sent and who worked on them. At the lowest level, the troops themselves as well as front-line workshops were allowed to repair minor damage as long as no application of heat or hammering of the steel was required. The Armee-Verwaltungs-Department stated that, as of June 1917, the autogenous welding of damaged areas as a means of repair was no longer allowed.

Helmets of the fallen were collected and delivered to Gruppenmaterialien depots. There were various materiel depots across Germany that helmets were sent to for repairs. Each division had its own materiel depot where it could requisition reworked helmets which the depot would provide from their stores. As of November 1917, all damaged helmets were to be sent to the"Stahlhelmausbesserungswerkstatt" (steel helmet repair workshop) at the Nebenbekleidungsamt in Metz-Monteningen.

Your statement that soldiers had to hand in their helmets when ordered to do so is not true for steel helmets. During the early stages in 1916 when helmets were still in short supply, they were considered part of the unit's stores and were rotated as needed. After that, the helmet was considered to be part of the soldier's personal equipment. In June 1917 the 4th Army did in fact order troops leaving their area of operations to hand in their helmets, and had to rescind the order after it was pointed out that equipment and helmets belonged to the soldier.

Hello Hans,

the BIA, BJA evolved into the "front line workshops"and material repair depots as you call them, that is what they are, repair centers.

the BKA evolved into the "Gruppenmaterialien" as you call it or distribution depot.

Often a repair depot was an companie. of a distribution depot Abt.

The "Stahlhelmausbesserungswerkstatt" (steel helmet repair workshop) at the Nebenbekleidungsamt in Metz-Monteningen is part of this system but was an Abt. in its own right.

We are talking about the same thing and please note that colonel J talks about the expansion of these units early in the war.

Anyway I appreciate your input because you have brought the 1917/ 18 titles of these units into the discussion.

The important thing is for any reader of this to be aware of these units. The buried inventory of these camo steel helmets which have been found in France is quite typical of what a German depot/ storeroom would do when they had to retreat. Then if the ground is retaken at a later date they may possibly recover them,

Chris

[90th Light]

Hey Hans,
This would be supported by the number of helmets with the soldier's nam written in them, but I would argue that they did not own them, they were responsible for them.
Best
Gus

Hello Gus,

I have several Pickelhaube which have soldiers names and units in them. Some have more than one name.

Same goes for my steel helmets and again, a couple of these (veteran brought back) have more than one name or unit,

Chris

[Gustaf B]

Hello Gus,

I have several Pickelhaube which have soldiers names and units in them. Some have more than one name.

Same goes for my steel helmets and again, a couple of these (veteran brought back) have more than one name or unit,

Chris

Hello Chris
I believe that this was done so the soldier who was issued the Pickelhaube or Stahlhelm would be able to ID "his" helmet that was issued as personal equipment. The early helmets that were kept in the front lines in the early days of the Stahlhelm would not have a name written in them, as they were not issued as personal equipment, and would be handed over to the man who relieved him.
I suspect that when we see more than one name in a helmet, the earlier owner probably was wounded, and turned in his uniform during his stay in Lazarett, and it was reissued to another.
Best
Gus