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**Dave Mosher** · 03-21-2004, 06:53 PM

Tony
I agree that the second kokarde is for unteroffiziere and sergeanten but believe that vizefeldwebel, feldwebel and fahnrich rank were authorized for officer's kokarden. Here is a page from "Feldgrau in Krieg und Frieden", III. Teil, Abzeichen, by Otto Weiss. The book was published in 1917.

Dave

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26.jpg (90.7 KB, 291 views)

**Tony & Kaiser** · 03-21-2004, 07:49 PM

Hi Dave,

The only thing that absolutely every reference I have agrees on, is that Sergeant and below wore the standard Mannschaft Kokarde.

I have noted, that some refs do say that Vizefeldwebel and Feldwebel were authorized for officer's kokarden, but what I am saying is that these references are wrong. Texts that say this, also state that Sergeant and below wore Mannschaft Kokarde. But if that is so, the NCO Kokarde would not exist. All my research on this firmly indicates that the NCO Kokarde was introduced in 1867 specifically for Feldwebel and Vizefeldwebel.

Another common belief is that Einjährig-Freiwilliger (One-Year Volunteers) wore officers Kokarden. Regulations state that Einjährig-Freiwilliger were not
authorized to wear officer Kokarden. They wore Mannschaft Kokarden and there are countless photos to support this.

Fähnrich (Officer-Candidate) wore Mannschaft Kokarden as well, but were allowed to wear the officer Kokarden only after passing the Officers' examination.

Feldwebelleutnant and Offizierstellvertreter were authorized to wear officer Kokarden.

I hope you understand that I have no agenda or vested interest or ego issue with this. Exactly who and who could not what Kokarden drove me nuts for a years

so I have spent a lot of time on it. Any info is welcome. T

**Tony & Kaiser** · 03-21-2004, 08:00 PM

I should add that the texts that I am using, are also period. Its interesting that some period books mention the 1867 NCO Kokarde for Vizewachtmeister and Wachtmeister while others, like "Feldgrau in Krieg und Frieden" by Weiss continue to quote the 09 March 1844 AKO. If period books cannot get it right, how could we ever agree on what is correct?

**Dave Mosher** · 03-21-2004, 08:17 PM

Tony
Show me the beef!! I have shown you at least one contemporary reference that shows that senior ncos were authorized for officer's kokarden. Also, look in vol. 2, page 37 of Casques a Pointe. It clearly shows both an officer aspirant and a senior nco with an officer's feldzeichen on their tschapkas. I still contend that the "nco kokarden" were for unteroffiziere and sergeanten, which was up to the rank of vizefeldwebel and feldwebel.

Dave

**Tony & Kaiser** · 03-21-2004, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by feldgrau dave

Show me the beef!!

Show you my what?

What is critical in the reference you refer to, "Feldgrau in Krieg und Frieden by Weiss is that it fails to mention the NCO Kokarde. A plate is not text.

Das Deutsche Heer, Casques A Pointe, Das kleine Buch vom Deutschen Heere Lipius & Tischer (1900), Handbuch der Uniformkunde by Knotel, Der Bunter Rock in Preußen all state that Sergeants and below wore Mannschaft Kokarde.

So who then was wearing the NCO Kokarden?

As indicated in post #1, Das kleine Buch vom Deutschen Heere Lipius & Tischer (1900) is one of the few period references that mentions them.

I looked in vol. 2, page 37 of Casques a Pointe expecting a period photo, but it was a photo of two Tschapka which I interpret to be two officer candidate helmets. And I am afraid that I simply will never trust an artifact as evidence. Too easy to manipulate. Especially in a museum, where items are notorious for being slapped toegether for display. T

**Dave Mosher** · 03-21-2004, 09:23 PM

Tony
"Feldgrau in Krieg und Frieden" is the based on the AKO of Sept. 21, 1915. It doesn't mention the 1844 AKO anywhere. Also, the books are authorized by the Kriegsministium. Although I don't have any photos of vizefeldwebels or feldwebels with helmets to see if they have officer's kokarden, I have several pictures of them with officer's kokarden on feldmutzen, including some I posted several months ago.

Dave

**Glenn2438** · 03-22-2004, 03:59 AM

Feldzeichen

Greetings Tony,

I did not want to stir up a hornets' nest over something as obscure as an NCOs cockade.

I think, like yourself I have been frustrated for years at having to work through many different sources just to try and pin down the little details with often contradictory answers.

Now to Lacarde vol 2, page 35: I have no claim to fluency in French but for the life of me, I can see no mention whatsoever of an introductory order of 26 Mar 1867 authorising an NCO Feldzeichen of ribbed cord for Vizewachtmeister and Wachtmeister. The text talks of the introduction of the new model Czapka for NCOs and Troopers per AKO 25 April 1867 and for the officers 11 months later per AKO 26 Mar 1868. It then goes on to describe how the body of the helmet was lowered and was more spherical. Then over the page: mais les Feldzeichens et cordons fourragéres ne subissent aucune modification which I translate as but the Feldzeichen and cap lines did not undergo any modification.

As we discussed in an earlier pm the only reference I have ever seen for the NCOs' cockade is in the fairly recent book on Bavarian Headdress which attributes an introductory date of 1897. I sure would like to get my hands on the period Dress Regulations for NCOs and soldiers!

Best regards
Glenn

**AOK4** · 03-22-2004, 07:23 AM

Hello,

The Kokarden mentioned on the plate are Kokarden for the field cap, not for the Pickelhaube...
Perhaps there is a difference there?

Jan

**Tony & Kaiser** · 03-22-2004, 08:08 AM

I don't think we'll stir up any hornets, unless one of use has $3000 invested in NCO Kokarden?

Like all of us, I am just trying to figure it out. Amazing how something so obscure can be so difficult to pin down. In response to what Dave said, is there any chance that Vizewachtmeister and Wachtmeister went back to wearing officer Kokarden after 1910 as part of the Feldgrau introduction? Dave's point of photographs of men with this rank with officer's Kokarden on feldmutzen would seem to support that. (?)

Could this explain why some period texts such as "Feldgrau in Krieg und Frieden" and even "Das deutsches Heer" (1914) support the officer Kokarden for Vizewachtmeister and Wachtmeister while earlier texts such as Das kleine Buch vom Deutschen Heere Lipius & Tischer (1900) clearly states that Vizewachtmeister and Wachtmeister wore NCO Kokarden? (See posting #1 for the quote).

Could this also explain why NCO Kokarden are so scarce?

To what Jan just mentioned re: the cap and Pickelhaube, I would expect that what was worn on on one would be worn of the other. (?)

Glenn I believe you are correct that I misread the para in Lacarde vol 2, page 35. I can read German quite well, but here I am right by the Quebec border and I cannot read any of it! But ribbed NCO Feldzeichen are out there........

**Glenn2438** · 03-22-2004, 11:09 AM

Feldzeichen

Tony,

I don't know if you have a copy of Die Helme der Königlich Bayerischen Armee 1806-1918 by Seibold and Schulz but on page 112 of this book, it illustrates three variations of Feldzeichen:

Officers
Eigentumsstück (your ribbed variant?)
Mannschaften

On the same page are two shakos, captioned as one from the Jäger and the other from the Verkehrstruppen, of a Feldwebel and Wachtmeister respectively. Both are fitted with officer pattern bullion Feldzeichen and the accompanying text is quite clear that this pattern was authorised for Unteroffiziere mit Portepee. It further reproduces period plates of the Bavarian Model 1873 and 1886 Uhlan Czapkas with drawings of the bullion Feldzeichen captioned on the original plates für Offiziere und Unteroffiziere mit Portepee.

Regards
Glenn

**Tony & Kaiser** · 03-22-2004, 12:50 PM

Hi Glenn,
I don't have Die Helme der Königlich Bayerischen Armee 1806-1918 by Seibold and Schulz yet, but want to get it, you mentioned to me before that it was quite good.. I'll pick it up when I am in Germany in May. If I draw a sober breath that is..................

This NCO Kokarden issue is not getting any clearer for me. Period references contradict each other, current references do the same.

And with Bayern doing it's own thing in regards to dress regs right up to the bitter end of WW1, I am not sure if I feel comfortable applying their regs to Prussia and it's provinces. As the Kokarde designates rank, I am amazed that the author would ID the M1867 NCO Kokarden as a "Eigentumsstück"? If there is one thing I do have, it a great many Carte de Viste of men (Privates and One Year Volunteers) wearing Eigentumsstück Pickelhauben and every one has plain, smooth Mannschaft Kokarden. However, none of my photos are from Bayern.

I am very hesitant to use a caption photo of headgear as any sort of empirical evidence as the caption reflects the author's interpretation (the terrible Bowman Pickelhaube books come to mind). As well, helmets can easily have parts added or removed just like Barbie dolls. What I do place a lot of faith in, are period photos. I flipped through what I have of Vizewachtmeister and Wachtmeister, but they don't have their helmets.

**Glenn2438** · 03-22-2004, 01:10 PM

Feldzeichen

Hi Tony,

it is the Feldzeichen and not the Cockade he describes as Eigentumsstück. I would definitely agree that period in-wear photographs are preferable. Perhaps some of the members here have some clear photographs of Jäger, Hussar or Uhlan SNCOs wearing their headdress? Anyway I have taken the liberty of a scan:

Regards
Glenn

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feldzeichen.jpg (21.2 KB, 242 views)

**Tony & Kaiser** · 03-22-2004, 01:23 PM

Now that is an interesting hypothesis, that unlike Foot Troops where the NCOs Kokarden is mentioned specifically after 1867, perhaps for the Cavalry there is no such thing as an "NCO Feldzeichen" and that it is simply an optional Eigentumsstück item to jazz-up your helmet. Interesting!

That would mean that the units that used the Feldwzeichen (Jager too perhaps?) continued with the AKO of 09 March 1844 allowing Feldwebel and Vizefeldwebel to wear officer's Kokarden. It would be nice (understatement) to find an AKO for this (obviously), but there seems to very little info out there in regards to Eigentums items.

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