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Stahlhem 1916 Fake, hoax, or master piece ?

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    #16
    No good's opinion's

    Originally posted by 704hoss55 View Post
    Thanks Cousette
    Very interesting infomation on the paint.
    So its a copy?

    Could you look at this helmet, for an opinion?
    http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=439233

    Thanks
    Eric
    the first is unsold in ebay.us. The helmet and liner are good. The schinstrap is a modern copy. For the paint is more difficult. It's seen to be "a commerative helmet" And the luminous paint seem to be a "cellulosic's" appears in the 1920's. Then I have the sem idea that phild.
    And the second helmet in the post are fake. (only the actual paint's are thin's).

    Comment

      #17
      When I saw the camo posted in this thread my first thought was about a M18 I got on ebay not too long ago. Has the same subdued paint. So looks original to me. You see Trench art on the front but I think I've seen Germans incorporate it into their helmets at the front.

      W.
      Attached Files

      Comment

        #18
        Thank you Cousette
        Its so true.
        The English 'Tommy' saw the Pickelhaube as a perfect souvenir. I remember a lot of households would have a 'Pickel' sitting on a bookcase or mantelpiece when I was young.
        Where,as Iam sure the American 'Doughboy' favored bringing home a Stahlhelm.
        I hope collectors can continue to seperate the wartime and immediate postwar camo helmets and weed out these commercial fakes.

        Eric

        Comment

          #19
          fake or real

          Hi fellow collectors,
          assuming that I am probably the french "expert" mentioned above by our friend "cousette" I just want to point out that :
          - the character painted on the helmet looks like a assault troop soldier, since the ladder was mainly used to get out of the trench during assaults, and not so much to clean the upper shelf in the trench underground shelter , ..... someone on the french forum described the character as possibly a chimney sweeper .... again ! Never seen a chimney sweeper with a carbine !
          - the helmet looks original, I don't say that it is original, but it looks great on the pics,

          Our friend "cousette" says : "The painting have any peeling. I have wrott an article about the paint of the early 20 th century. They have made with vegetal seccative oil (i dont know the english word, seccative : is the natural polymerization of oil, for example the linen oil). Those oils become with time oxidized, and get a dark colors. And those paints are very fragile. Normaly they will be peeling in the contact surfaces. In 1920 cellulosic paint (the actual using) appear they are more resistant."

          As far as I am concerned, I also have a number of original camouflaged helmets (10-12) and some have similar "fresh" paint and patina, no one has any "peeling" paint, and I agree with the other forum member on this point (Placeofbayonets), I'm not a specialist in chimicals and I don't know exactly the history of paints but I suppose that Germany was pretty much in advance in this field compared to other nations, I found on the net an article saying that the first acrylic paints were produced in Germany in the 20s, this does not mean that the German empire did not start using them during the war ... and why would this paint be acrylic ? even the feldgrau original paint does not fade and does not get darker if kept in a protected environment, so I disagree with the theory made by our "expert" cousette.

          - On the other hand, I agree with "cousette" and I mentioned this in my post on the french forum, that this helmet could also be a post-war souvenir, just as those original helmets we sometimes see with an iron cross and war/krieg or Guerre 1914-18 souvenir,

          in conclusion, there's an easy way to know the thruth : gently scratch a microscopic sample of the paint and bring it to some forensic laboratory .... there's a market now for scientific examination of expensive militaria items
          kind regards, Steve, website imperialhelmets.com

          Comment

            #20
            Scientist against bussines man

            In the first hand they are scientifical argument's ans in the second and commercial argument's.

            The nitro-cellulosic paint have been created in 1920's (after war) in the way to use the enormous stocks of nitro-cellulose made during the war to produce explosives for ammo.

            It seem raisonnable to think that german's preferred to make high explosive shell that paint.

            Imperail helmets said :

            "even the feldgrau original paint does not fade and does not get darker if kept in a protected environment, so I disagree with the theory made by our "expert" cousette".

            Terribal mystake, regrettable error.

            The stahlhelm are not painted with linen oil's paint, but "dry paint" (polyester) who have been created in 1880 by the french society FERMOB (fron FER MOBilier = IRON + FURNITURE, this society made piece of forniture for the out side and garden).
            This dry paint must to be firing. And after it's very resistant.

            And I 'am totaly agree with in conclusion :

            "in conclusion, there's an easy way to know the thruth : gently scratch a microscopic sample of the paint and bring it to some forensic laboratory .... there's a market now for scientific examination of expensive militaria items"

            It's would be a pleasure for me to do a new Ph.D. about the paint datation. I can work with laboratory of the french National center of scientifical research and privat laboratory implicat on archeoligical datation.

            I have suggested an authentification of the "Stirnpanzer" by an isotopic analize (it's very easy, after 1945 all the iron are contaminated by the radio-elements ressulting of the nuclear weapons).
            The prise of the analyse is : 200 $ it's very cheap compare to the price of a Stirnpanzer (3000 $).

            I have found any volonteer. How do you introduce a research with any sample...

            Comment

              #21
              don't worry

              Originally posted by PlaceOfBayonets View Post
              When I saw the camo posted in this thread my first thought was about a M18 I got on ebay not too long ago. Has the same subdued paint. So looks original to me. You see Trench art on the front but I think I've seen Germans incorporate it into their helmets at the front.

              W.

              In my opinion the helmet showed in your post is good. Good shape of painting and good aspect.

              I'm totaly agree with the fact that camoufled helmet are include in front's unit.
              But the questoin is "howmuch". If you look at the picture of the withdrawed german army in 1918. The camoufled helmet are very rare.

              Comment

                #22
                This is a very interesting thread,

                Chris

                Comment

                  #23
                  Originally posted by 90th Light View Post
                  This is a very interesting thread,

                  Chris
                  Agreed Chris
                  But Iam getting a bit confused.
                  We all know the original finish was cured in ovens. But camos werent.
                  This linen oil cousette talks of, is it not linseed?

                  Eric

                  Comment

                    #24
                    Originally posted by 704hoss55 View Post
                    Agreed Chris
                    But Iam getting a bit confused.
                    We all know the original finish was cured in ovens. But camos werent.
                    This linen oil cousette talks of, is it not linseed?

                    Eric
                    Yes, it is oil maid from linseed.

                    Comment

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