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**joerookery** · 04-01-2009, 04:13 PM

Hi
<o></o>
Could you please give me permission to copy and publish your helmet Mark? If you give me your permission I will add it to our listing at:
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urple; mso-themecolor:followedhyperlink; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; font-size:10.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/Helmet_Makers.htm
<o></o>
If you give me your name I will add it to our contributors list. You need do nothing except give permission. We do not have a good example of it. Thank you for your consideration.

**DennyB** · 04-01-2009, 05:34 PM

It appears to be a nice original example to me. Are they reproducing these? If this is a reproduction, I give up, it looks great to me.

**Lon** · 04-01-2009, 06:31 PM

Your pickelhaube is listed as an "ersatz". My understanding is that ersatz means a substitute. Could you explain how the word is being used in your ad?

**DennyB** · 04-01-2009, 08:03 PM

I think ersatz is what they called them that were made of felt instead of leather.

**C. Roelens** · 04-01-2009, 08:28 PM

Andy,

I don't claim to be the duty expert in this area, but, this is why I wouldn't buy it. I believe everything is original except the chinstrap, both kockades, and the drawstring.

Chinstrap - I could be wrong, but it looks like a reproduction to me. Also, I would think the original chinstrap would have all brass fittings, not steel.

Cockades - They just don't look right to me, especially the fat white ring around the center. I've had a few original leather helmets and the ones on this helmet are not even close.

Drawstring - I thought most, if not all, were made of leather on these helmets.

Lastly, isn't there suspose to be brass trim on the front leather bill?

I understand you bought this off the e-stand last year? There are a few collectors on the Imperial Forum who have the expertise to comment, hopefully; they will do so.

Good luck to you.

Chuck

**C. Roelens** · 04-01-2009, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by DennyB View Post

I think ersatz is what they called them that were made of felt instead of leather.

Correct. Field-Gray felt pressed into one piece (like Andy's) was one method of production because of the shortage of leather. Several other methods were used also, ie. cork, artificial fibres, and pressed cardboard. To my knowledge all of the fittings were the same as on the leather helmets.

Chuck

**andya** · 04-02-2009, 02:29 AM

thanks

Originally posted by joerookery View Post

Hi
<O></O>
Could you please give me permission to copy and publish your helmet Mark? If you give me your permission I will add it to our listing at:
<O></O><LINK href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5COWNER%7E1.JOE%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTem p%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml" rel=File-List><LINK href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5COWNER%7E1.JOE%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTem p%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_themedata.thmx" rel=themeData><LINK href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5COWNER%7E1.JOE%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTem p%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xm l" rel=colorSchemeMapping><STYLE> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1610611985 1107304683 0 0 159 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-unhide:no; color:blue; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; color

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<O></O>
If you give me your name I will add it to our contributors list. You need do nothing except give permission. We do not have a good example of it. Thank you for your consideration.

Yes please feel free

thanks to all for your replies

I will also list this in the imperial section to see if solicits any futher comment
regards
andy

**phild** · 04-02-2009, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Charles A. Roel View Post

Andy,

I don't claim to be the duty expert in this area, but, this is why I wouldn't buy it. I believe everything is original except the chinstrap, both kockades, and the drawstring.

Chinstrap - I could be wrong, but it looks like a reproduction to me. Also, I would think the original chinstrap would have all brass fittings, not steel.

Cockades - They just don't look right to me, especially the fat white ring around the center. I've had a few original leather helmets and the ones on this helmet are not even close.

Drawstring - I thought most, if not all, were made of leather on these helmets.

Lastly, isn't there suspose to be brass trim on the front leather bill?

I understand you bought this off the e-stand last year? There are a few collectors on the Imperial Forum who have the expertise to comment, hopefully; they will do so.

Good luck to you.

Chuck

I like your approach in being specific with well stated concerns. I do not agree with everything that you point out and some things I am just not sure about. A few of my observations follow:

1. The chinstrap I am not sure about. I like the crazing and the thinner leather. It looks period too me, but they are faking them very well these days. I thought that the fittings were tarnished brass, but re-looking them after your point, you may be right (grayed steel), I lean toward the strap being period, if so hard to say that it came on this helmet and hard to say if any in any case did. I think that it may well be period associated with the helmet...don't know

2. You may also be right in the cockades, to me they look old, but maybe not typical.

3. Usually I have seen the original tie strings in these type helmets in off white linen or flax cord. I have seen mostly leather in the other helmets...string may not be period, I agree.

These type of felt helmets have been faked for at least 27 years as I looked at some in Germany in 1982 (or so) , but this one does not look like any of the fakes that I have seen. The quality of the felt has always been very hard for the fakers to get right on these and this one looks correct in that respect.

These felt helmets also were produced with many variations of what areas were trimmed and some (many) were made with the grey trim as well. Lack of trim on the front visor was common as was a lack of a spine fitting in the back....they can be found both ways. I personally would not rule out a grey metal fitted chinstrap being installed on a brass mounted felt helmet at the depot or even factory as this was all in transition at the time some of these were being made (1915).

The more original the better, but I am not too critical about drawstrings and even cockades on a piece like this. I understand that it is a factor, but it does not kill the helmet in my opinion. To put it another way- I would NEVER buy any EM helmet with the absolute belief that the chinstrap and cockades that were on it, no matter how perfect that they looked or fit , were the same ones that had been on it since the factory.....

**phild** · 04-02-2009, 11:25 AM

I would to add that this helmet has a lot going for it...much above average IMO regardless of the outcome on the strap and cockades.

The condition is very nice for one of these and the condition of the liner even more so. Overall look is very together and impressive, not always the case with these types. I also consider the label to be a nice plus.

**C. Roelens** · 04-02-2009, 01:32 PM

It's good to finally see another response. I wonder where the member is who asked for discussion on this helmet, and what it is he's concerned about.

I agree this helmet does have alot going for it... the outstanding condition of the felt pressed shell, the outstanding condition of the leather liner, the excellent-outstanding condition of all the brass. The brass may have been cleaned/polished... doesn't matter. The maker/size label.

Forget about the drawstring... no biggie.

Let's get to the chinstrap and cockades, which by your reponse also, are still questionable. If the chinstrap is original even with steel fittings it wouldn't bother me personally. If it is not, are you aware that originals are selling for several hundreds of dollars... if you can find one? If the cockades are reproduction and you want to make the helmet right, you're looking at another $125.00-$150.00 for originals. These are two major factors to consider when you're getting ready to spend about $650.00 on this helmet.

Chuck

**C. Roelens** · 04-02-2009, 01:37 PM

Andy,

Would you consider posting good close-up photos of the chinstrap and cockades for discussion? Maybe we can get to the bottom line on these so the future owner will have no doubts about what he is getting.

Chuck

**andya** · 04-02-2009, 02:45 PM

pictures

Originally posted by Charles A. Roel View Post

Andy,

Would you consider posting good close-up photos of the chinstrap and cockades for discussion? Maybe we can get to the bottom line on these so the future owner will have no doubts about what he is getting.

Chuck

Yes would be pleased to. Its dark here now so will get some in the morning with natural light.
thanks to all for the replies to date
regards
andy

**phild** · 04-02-2009, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Charles A. Roel View Post

Let's get to the chinstrap and cockades, which by your reponse also, are still questionable. If the chinstrap is original even with steel fittings it wouldn't bother me personally. If it is not, are you aware that originals are selling for several hundreds of dollars... if you can find one? If the cockades are reproduction and you want to make the helmet right, you're looking at another $125.00-$150.00 for originals. These are two major factors to consider when you're getting ready to spend about $650.00 on this helmet.

Chuck

I agree fully with the the above.

I also think that due to the flexibility of these type helmets the chinstraps and cockades could fall off pretty easy...and I am talking about being moved around and such from the time they left German control until a collector first gets it.

I say this not to make an excuse, but rather to remind myself to pay close attention these details ..especially on this type of helmet.

**Adler 1** · 04-03-2009, 07:19 AM

Andy, I think nothing is wrong with this haube...

1) The felt body looks 100 % ok to me...
2) The helmetplate and the spike are not brass as we know it, it's more a composition of brass and aluminum, which gives automaticaly a brighter color than the regular brass ones we see on normal leather helmets. Therefore it has no oxidation...
3) The cockades are maybe not typical, but are just another variation imo...
4) The tie string is perfectly ok for this kind of helmet, it is in fact THE string...
5) The chinstrap is of a poor quality leather, but this one survived very well. Normally the outside of these chinstraps seems to crack and come off. The inside has normally this reddish color... If you hold a magnet against the metal, you'll know if it's steel or brass. Can't see this in the pictures...

Here are some pics... I know it's not exactly the same helmet, but comparison is possible...

Chinstrap:

Tie string of a Probe Tschako:

Helmet plate of the same Probe:

Hope this'll help you...

Adler 1

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