M16 helmet cover on the e-stand

[Chad1]

Somebody was hoping to get some opinions on the helmet cover I've had on the e-stand for a while.

Here is the link.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=332306

[PlaceOfBayonets]

Hi,

I have been curious about this helmet cover for some time. First let me say I can never afford it but also that they are a hot item for collectors who have everything but the kitchen sink.

I know they are easy to fake. Was interested in discussing this cover only from the standpoint of learning more about them as originals not as someone interested in buying.

My concerns that may well be un founded is the really good condition of the piece. The bright vibrant size stamp, the fact that one size would normally be fitted to a size range of three helmets sizes and while the leather on the outside looks like it has age I am not convinced it's original age..... Mostly because the leather on the inside does not compare to the outside in condition. I'd think there would be a matted look to the inside of the leather or at least some darkening. It really looks brand new.

Would be interested to know what the others think. The thing should have sold already I'd think.

Wilhelm

[1corps]

IMO the thing that is tough is that there are not many known originals to compare it to. Many fakes have surfaced and are relatively easy to make up I would believe. Various makers made these in sizes ranging from 60-68. The only "original" I have seen is listed in the Jurgen Kraus book "The Germany Army in the First World War". It is sized 68. The material, stamping and construction is different than this one on e-stand. I am also concerned on the brightness of the size stamp and also no manufacture stamp is present. I understand these are covers and were probably made by many firms and the construction techniques could differ immensely. It is a tough call. I do like the wear on the outside of the leather grommets but the differences I mentioned above give me concerns. Just my 2 cents. Mike.

[Chad1]

cover

Perhaps I could elaborate on where I got this cover and that might help, or hurt it, I suppose.

It was purchased from Great War Militaria a few years ago.

Their description of the cover stated that it was likely made in preparation for the Spring 1918 offensive incase snow was still on the ground. Apparently there wasn't, and most were hardly used. That might explain the overall excellent condition of this example, with only some soiling.

In talking with Rick from GWM, he claimed to have had about a dozen covers over the years and their construction varied greatly. But one of the nice things about this one is the clips are much heavier than those used on picklehaube covers, which according to him, is a good sign.

Anyway, just a little more for you guys to chew on. Really, any discussion is appreciated.

[Adler 1]

Chad,
Since you ask for opinions, I'll give you mine... About 15 years ago a few variatons of helmet covers started popping up on the shows. I've seen many of them and it seems they have made different models and types because this is an easy thing to reproduce... There is one thing that seems to be the same on all these covers: the two leather rings around the holes for the vent lugs. These are made of old leather, but newly cut.
This cover has exactly the same leather rings. If you look closely, you can see the stitching going over the undamaged leather as well as the surface where chips of the top layer are gone. If this was an original, one would see remains of the top layer under the stitching. Most of the originals even don't have leather rings...
The clips you refer to are still available in different sizes, so this is no reasen to asume they are original.
Most of the originals are made of 2 pieces with the stitched seam from front to back, this one has 4...
The soiling of the cover looks artificial to me as well.
To make a conclusion; imo this cover is a fake... Sorry to say but that's just what I think...
Originals can be seen on this picture:


Greetings from Belgium,

Adler 1

[C. Roelens]

Going on 40 years and I've never had the opportunity to purchase an original. Actually... I've never seen an original, and don't really expect to see, or find one for sale. With that said, I'm inclined to agree with the above comments.

Does anybody have an original to post, or email for reference?

Chuck

[Chad1]

construction

I thought the two piece construction covers were of Austrian manufacture, which also typically had a drawstring, not clips.

And I've seen more pictures of three piece German manufactured ones.

This is the only four piece I've seen, but as stated, there could possibly be many variations.

Perhaps there is somebody out there who has actually had a cover(s) that could comment?

[Adler 1]

Chad, I can understand you want this one to be an original, but is a period picture of the German Bundesarchiv dated april 14th 1917 not a good evidence? Of course there have been variations, but who knows everything about them.
In this case I just was trying to point out some red flags. The strongest evidence for me is the leather rings. They are absolutely no good imo.
When you make a combination of all the points that were explained earlier, I think some bells have to ring... But hey, that's just my opinion...
I think it's going to be tough to find someone with an original with clips... But let's hope someone shows up...

Adler 1

[Hans K.]

Adler1, are you suggesting that leather rings are not proper for all WW1 German helmet covers? It's important to distinguish between snow covers - the only officially sanctioned German steel helmet cover of the war- and the many variations of unofficial field grey/tan covers. Textbook snow covers should have leather reinforcement rings.

Hans

[Adler 1]

Hans, I'm not suggesting that leather rings are not proper for all WW1 German helmet covers. I'm just trying to say that the rings we see here are not original...


Adler 1

[Hans K.]

Thanks for the clarification Adler. You stated earlier that most covers didn't have leather reinforcements, and I just wanted to point out that the opposite was true with snow camo covers.

I thought I'd share a passage in Ludwig Baer's book Vom Stahlhelm zum Gefechtshelm Volume I which discusses these covers. I have no idea if it will help in the discussion, but I thought it interesting regardless. The translation is mine.

In the winter of 16/17 the Kriegsbekleidungsamt found itself having to deliver 25 000 white helmet covers in the shortest time possible, and by the Summer, 393 pieces were left in stock. In order to prevent this from occuring again in the winter of 17/18, enough bleached cloth was set aside for roughly 60 000 helmet covers. There are no records showing whether or not this cloth was in fact used to manufacture these helmet covers, but in a Kreigsbekleidungsamt II.b.A.K. letter dated 21. 10 18 it is stated that 73 392 white covers were still in their store rooms, and that none had been requisitioned since the winter of 16/17.

Here is a picture of field grey/tan covers in use.

Hans

[Chip M]

I have seen a lot of helmet covers over a lifetime of collecting WWI German items and other than the Probe pieces at the Bavarian Army Museum in Ingolstadt, I think I have only seen two or three that I think are unquestionably good. These tend to be field made from sand sack material. When I say sand sack, I am not talking about a burlap bag. The material of these covers is the distinctive paper cloth that German sand bags were made from. I have photos of such a cover in the collection of the Royal Belgian Army Museum in Brussels. It has no vent holes and is attached to helmet with a draw string.

I also have a cover in my collection, which I bought in 1985 from the liquidation of a large Canadian WWI collection. It is gray canvas with square cloth reinforced vent holes. It is made in four sections, each with a vertical pleat to make it more form fitting to the helmet. It has hooks and is marked "B.A.X" "64" "J.R.164." The gray canvas is a tight weave much akin to Zeltbahn material. It is the best example of a gray cover that I have ever seen, but I don't think I will ever be 100% sure about it, just because such covers are not mentioned in the AKOs.

Chip

[Adler 1]

Chip,
I think pictures are needed here ...

Adler 1

[Chad1]

covers

I too would like to see pictures of covers.

However, I think some pictures of the 15 year old fakes are in order if you're going to equate this example with those.

From what I've seen of this type of item, there is by no means a record of standardization, and discounting this cover with NO other examples of its type to compare it with may be getting ahead of oneself.

[Tony & Kaiser]

Adler1, are you suggesting that leather rings are not proper for all WW1 German helmet covers? It's important to distinguish between snow covers - the only officially sanctioned German steel helmet cover of the war- and the many variations of unofficial field grey/tan covers. Textbook snow covers should have leather reinforcement rings.
Hans

Hans, I have to agree with Karel. The issue is not that it has leather rings, its that the stitching goes over damaged leather as well as the hardened old surface of the leather as it once was. This is an old piece of leather, newly sewn on. You just will not see this on original sewn leather, insignia, you name it. Damage should be around the stitching, not under it.

Oh, and Chad, you lost me the second I read where you bought it. I would not buy a M15 button from that place. it would probably be made of "late war Ersatz rubber".