Care, preservation and cleaning of Imperial headgear

[Edelweiss]

Chris,
I must disagree with you on a couple of levels. First, we are all entitled to our opinions regarding our collecting. However, I feel you pushed your point a little too far. In doing so, you managed to alienate one of the most experienced and knowledgeable Imperial German collectors around. Tony is also kind enough to freely give his time (truly anyone's most precious commodity) to share his years of accumulated knowledge with the rest of us.
Steve

Hi Steve,

If I pushed my point "a litte too far", and nothing prevents me from doing so, maybe was it to make people react. One can make me notice it - like you did - and talk about that and all the rest (agreeing or disagreeing on one - or several - points) without slamming any door. One can notice that a constructive and argumented discussion is possible with some, but not with everybody unfortunately. And obviously, several collectors have their opinion to express on this very topic, the lenght and participation in the original thread is an evidence of that : the discussion shows much more matter than the expected "ooohs" and "aaahs" the item at the origin of the thread would have brought, even if I agree that they are justified.

Shall I remind people that it's a discussion forum ? No, nobody managed to "alienate" anybody, that wasn't already in the mood to alienate himself on his own. Maybe was it a bad day Tony ? I hope things changed about that, I would be happy to see you push your point here as far as you want.

So, back to the subject of the discussion : my point is not to say that absolutely NOTHING has to be done in order to preserve an imperial piece of headgear. What I was saying is that taking an helmet apart and cleaning it in order to make it look absolutely "new" is IMO an heresy. What's the point of making a 90+ years item looking "what it was looking when new" ? Is this a topic we can't discuss between collectors ? Does this subject of discussion calls in question someone's personal references and/or knowledge in Imperial Militaria and History ?

As far as I'm concerned, I made no mystery about the fact that Pickelhauben are not my main theme of collection. But what prevents me from changing things about that one day ? Do I lack the knowledge ? To a certain extend maybe ; but I was already interested in the topic and learning about it in the early 80s, spiked helmets are not a recent discovery for me. Now, if I had to build a more solid collection, I would without any doubt choose items that kept, as far as possible, their original condition. Items that are "talking" and who show that their main components are together since ages : too many common EM Prussian helmets turned into rarer officer's or scarce L******228;nder Pickels, and this practise began more than 30 years ago ; what to say about the spare parts (originals and repros) that are available on eBan and in hundreds of other places on the net ?

So, it's among my prerogatives to pass - when choosing an item for my collection - a helmet that was treated with metal and shoe polish, and looking like it was built yesterday. The advanced collectors' and specialists' opinions on that point are not necessarily mine, and I'm not obliged to follow their views on the problem. And I can say that I'm far to be alone in this case. I choosed the Model 1871 W******252;rttemberg Grenadier Regt. Nr. 119 Pickelhaube (here) as a typical example. Why ? Because I discovered its transformation on Tony's site months ago and readers of the other thread already know what I'm thinking about it ; I also showed what it became to some collector friends of mine at that time, and they were sorry too. Now of course, one can call me a dumb, an inexperienced and uneducated collector for thinking so, and slam the door to my face right after. But deniying the fact that I (and some collectors) are thinking this way, and saying at the same time that this has absolutely no impact of the market value of an item, is nothing else than a true refusal of the reality.

[mravery]

Hey Chris,

I had been watching the thread for some time... and thought it might be time to weigh in.

You have raised some good points....... however, one thing that has not really been discussed is that all rules don't apply to everything. Meaning.... If I had a M40 Camo (I used to collect WW2 stuff).. I would never do anything to it other than keep the dust off. This item would never have been 'polished' while in use and would have been created and used for combat wear.

If you check with any Museum I think you will find that they often clean and treat their items for preservation reasons.. even paintings are cleaned and vacuumed to preserve them as dust is one of the most destructive agents to paintings and canvas.

Any Order's collectors will also tell you that they clean the enameled items (as long as they can be cleaned without disturbing other items if mounted for wear).

Yes.. this will make them look 'good as new'.... but there is nothing wrong with that IMO.

And as far as making an original look like new because it's clean.... well.. experienced collectors can tell the difference.. and if you think that a little bit of 'patina' makes a good one good....... you should be aware that the fakers can put a 90+ year old patina on something in about 2 days.

My two cents.

Cheers
Mark

[Edelweiss]

Here's an example of a Eigentums Tschapka representing 2. Garde Ulanen Regiment. It has never been "cleaned," though it has been dusted and vacuumed. Judge for yourselves whether Tony's Pickelhaube has suffered as a consequence of his efforts.



Dirt is as old and common as the Earth. If you value it on a Stahlhelm, fine. But, who's to say it wasn't put there by some child playing army in the backyard with Daddy or Grandpa's wartime souvenir?

On a Pickelhaube, that same commodity is a death sentence.

Charles

Charles, congats for such a superb item. And saying that it was only "dusted and vacuumed" in not at all in opposition with my views and arguments.

The guide even says that ideally a helmet should be left alone, but that the best option if you want to clean it, is just to clean of the dirt and dust and leave the patina in place. He says this quite clearly. If a guy wants to go further, he tells you how to do it safely so you wont ruin a helmet. I just don't see what you guys are not getting? Its like a buffet at Sizzler's. You can take none or a little, or all of it. You are the one who decides as a collector. The best part, some of you guys who are so vocal about not cleaning pickelhaubes have one pickelhaube?

Any one who thinks that cleaning a pickelhaube with age and wear makes it look like a brand-new replica obviously doesnt collect pickelhaubes.

I agree that Tony's guide says things clearly ; but if a collector decides "to go further" - taking the rest of Sizzler's buffet as the "way to do things right" - there's nothing wrong either in saying that some other collectors wouldn't appreciate that much what the item became.

Now, about having a Pickelhaube or not is not the point : at first it's a bit ironical and far to be a valid argument in the matter. Secondly, if some of us have none or few spiked helmets, maybe is it because today, the 100 % original and untouched Pickelhauben we're looking for are too scarce, quite simply. Happy if you have a nice collection Tom ; but maybe the ones you own won't meet the standards of other collectors regarding what's on their shelves. Or if they do, well : they're on your shelves and not on the market !

[Edelweiss]

If you check with any Museum I think you will find that they often clean and treat their items for preservation reasons.. even paintings are cleaned and vacuumed to preserve them as dust is one of the most destructive agents to paintings and canvas.
... / ...
And as far as making an original look like new because it's clean.... well.. experienced collectors can tell the difference.. and if you think that a little bit of 'patina' makes a good one good....... you should be aware that the fakers can put a 90+ year old patina on something in about 2 days.

My two cents.

Cheers
Mark

Mark, I would be very cautious with what museums practise on their items, generally speaking. If you knew what goes on in some of them in France and - cherry on the cake - how many "enhanced" and fake items some of them show, you would understand what I mean. Of course, I'm not speaking about the Louvre, the British or the Metropolitan Museum (even if I don't know any museum that never made mistakes in the past), but museums linked with militaria.

Yes I agree, fakers can add some patina quite easilly ; but an experienced militaria collector, even a bit out of his domain, will be able to tell if a helmet is a put together piece, if it was taken apart at one point or not. And this operation on an untouched helmet tends to bother me a bit, even if spiked helmets can be taken apart easilly and without "damage". It never happened to my M.95 Prussian helmet - a thing quite obvious to any collector having it in hands, Steve - and that's one of the main reasons why I choosed it. Unfortunately, I met too few available for sale in this condition to date...

[Tony & Kaiser]

//nobody managed to "alienate" anybody, that wasn't already in the mood to alienate himself on his own. Maybe was it a bad day Tony ? //

Chris, do you really think I am going to react to your comment above? Especially after the rather odd comments below?

//no real surprise here either : I now have the "nose" (understand "experience") to predict some particular reactions in advance.//

//I wasn't aware, but I didn't know you yet, that posting one of your helmets in this (discussion) forum was submited to the fact that each and every member had to share your opinions and views. //

//Hope it dind't brought too much dust on your shiny museum curator's shoes //

As I said previously, I removed my starter thread as it was turned into a crusade against cleaning and was too far from the topic to be saved, and suggested that if you wished to keep going, then run with it, which you did. In every post I made, I believe that I said clearly that you are entitled to your opinion, and never said that you had to agree with what I was saying, and no-where did I indicate that you were not welcome in any discussion I was involved with? I believe I did my best to show you the respect that every person deserves regardless of their opinion. So with all due respect, I think I will pass on contributing and wish you (sincerely) the best. Good luck with your collecting.

Oh, for the record, I wear combat boots. .

[Edelweiss]

A "crusade" ? Not at all. Well, at least I didn't intend to leave for one if it's what you think. I asked for the motivations of going so far (sometimes only, it's understood) in the cleaning of such rare, today, pieces of militaria, especially when they come into your hands in a very nice and untouched condition. Moreover given the fact that once in your collection, such items won't have to suffer any more from bad conditions, such as light, moisture, etc..., dangers that are well depicted in your site.

Anyway, I made a mistake and I apologise for it : I brought your thread too far from its original topic, that's right. I should have started this one earlier. But for my defense, I'll say that its title was a serious invitation.

I simply intended to bring the discussion on this : are these dangers above not too overestimated, to the point that a collector will go as far as bringing a 90+ years old item back in its "original", "as new" condition ? Isn't it saving a piece of headgear from a certain number of (real) perils in making it fall into another, almost irreparable one ? Removing "dirt, grime, kitchen grease, dust and cat hair from sitting on a shelf or in a basement for years neglected" okay, till there no problem. But going as far as it was done for the Model 1871 W******252;rttemberg Grenadier Regt. Nr. 119 Pickelhaube, that was already in a superb condition, is it still reasonable ? That's the question I was asking to the "Advanced and Experienced Imperial Headgear Collectors".

And all I had as an answer is the fact that the advanced imperial headgear collectors in question see no problem in doing so, that "scores of people" would buy such renewed items anyway, that you had 35+ years of collecting behind you (I don't have that much, but I'm not very far behind you), that you were a curator with a training from one of the most renowned institutes in the world (congrats, surely a passionating and valuable experience), that I violated "the international recognition of intellectual property" by posting one of your pics in this forum (this one was a bit petty, if you allow me to say so) ; and concluding by pulling your item and slamming the door. Well, there were some very admirable points in all this, but none - in my opinion - that brought much to the discussion and to the reflection effort I wanted some collectors to make : when is it too far, can't the "advanced imperial collectors" see (and take into account) that for some other collectors it may be too far ? And won't this way of doing change in the years to come ?

But well, as far as the "other collectors" are not fully part of the "Advanced Imperial Collecting Community", their opinion is worth a bag of peanuts and is wiped away with a backhander. As Tom said : "How many of you have a Pickelhaube ?", meaning for sure that in order to vote, you need to do some advanced political studies and/or be a politician first. Anyway, sorry you will pass contributing here, I'm obviously still silly enough to have some illusions about people ; but that's the way I am, and it's too late to change things at our age, not true ?


Oh, and for the record, the curator's shining shoes stepping out of the museum was an image to be taken at the 2nd degree : focusing on one's belly button (understand the Advanced Imperial Collecting Community) is what I actually meant.
The fact that you told us about your promotion left no big doubt about your kind of shoes. I too tend to prefer combat boots ; moreover, the ones who wear them in their job do not generally judge people on their shoulder boards, or use their own as an argument in a discussion. But on these points too, I may well keep some silly illusions...

[ottodog8]

"It never happened to my M.95 Prussian helmet - a thing quite obvious to any collector having it in hands, Steve "

Chris,
I didn't say the helmet had been taken apart. However there are people who can do it so you would never know. It would also be difficult to tell if it was done 50 or 60 years ago. I do know it has been polished. If you believe the patina on that spike is 95 years old, you had better do a little more research on the subject.
Steve

[Chip M]

I have been reading the other thread and have just finished reading this one and the thing that comes through for me is that the comments of Edelweiß, though fair opinions, were made in such a way as to riducule. At first it was subtle and then got downright personal. Edelweiß is obviously a very clever person, but there is a streak of meaness there that lends something sad to his otherwise well stated arguements. This topic could have been started in a much better way.

Chip

[Brian S]

I have been reading the other thread and have just finished reading this one and the thing that comes through for me is that the comments of Edelweiß, though fair opinions, were made in such a way as to riducule. At first it was subtle and then got downright personal. Edelweiß is obviously a very clever person, but there is a streak of meaness there that lends something sad to his otherwise well stated arguements. This topic could have been started in a much better way.

Chip

Stated clearly, Chip. Agreed. Tony doesn't deserve that. We have all learned from him. Whether you agree with his every word is not important, but you don't need to riducule him.

[Edelweiss]

Brian & Chip, the problem here, and it's not the first time it happens in this forum, is that no more discussion is possible. No problem for threads showing a nice original item, and getting 2 or 3 pages of congratulations for it. But obviously, putting a grain of salt in a "show thread" in order to bring out an important point seems now to be out of the "politically correct" domain. Did this forum turn in a show room only ?

Now look at your two replies : you don't seem very interested in the very topic of these two threads (where is your contribution to it, here or in the other thread ?!?), but rather in the small issue between Tony and I. That's what you want to stick to : you didn't come here to discuss about militaria, and bringing the discussion back on its original topic isn't a thing you intend to let us do.

Okay, so if you read that well the original thread from Tony, you will surely notice that till post #11, I stayed focused on the topic : what in the discussion was out of the militaria subject ? The first "personal" post came with this one :

OK, Chris, you win. You said you would leave it at that and still came back to argue your opinion. I respect it, but completely disagree which it comes to pre-1915 Picklehauben. As a result, I have deleted the original post as you have moved this thread from a thread about a superb near-mint example of an M15 officer's helmet towards your own agenda. You want to keep going with this, go ahead.

If you were to pass on buying the helmet in post #5 (which is unauthorized use of copyrighted photos from my site in violation of international recognition of intellectual property) then that would not be a problem as there would scores of people who would be delighted to obtain it.

What I see in there is :

1******176 "I respect it" [my opinion], "but completely disagree which it comes to pre-1915 Picklehauben. As a result, I have deleted the original post."
Does this need any comment ? In case of disagreement on one point, the original post is deleted and the persons involved in the discussion are asked - in a very polite way - to get lost.

2******176 "Which is unauthorized use of copyrighted photos from my site in violation of international recognition of intellectual property."
And does this need any comment either ? I intended - from the very beginning - to bring the discussion on a very specific item, which was the best possible illustration of my point of view. NOT a person, but a helmet. And did we have a chance to discuss about the treatment this very piece of militaria got ? Nope, here came the big guns out, and I got my nose rubbed with the "international recognition of intellectual property".

So, you're both very quick to speak about ridicule and meaness, gentlemen. But I will remind you, if ever it was needed, that I wasn't the first one to fall into it. And also that I wasn't the first one either to bring the discussion on a personal note.

I also use to stand a discussion with my own arguments, and never deleted a thread to date if by chance I had too few left... before slamming the door and leaving, draped in my offended dignity. So, nobody will prevent you from playing that game too gentlemen, at least if you don't fear ridicule either ; but Tony and I are big enough boys to solve any issue between us by ourselves, thanks. Now, regarding your own views and arguments on the very topic of this thread, we're still waiting to hear them, if ever you have some to share.

Oh, and I forgot to say that the kind of "segregation" that is made among collectors (Imperial, WWII, etc...), preventing some collector's opinion from being a valid one tends to bother me a bit : an arbitrary, unfair and ridicule too way to deny good arguments to my taste.

[Edelweiss]

It would also be difficult to tell if it was done 50 or 60 years ago. I do know it has been polished. If you believe the patina on that spike is 95 years old, you had better do a little more research on the subject.
Steve

Thanks for the advice, Steve : I'll do my best to follow it from now on.

Now, a "50 or 60 years" old patina and untouched condition for an item is okay for me. A few months old one and a treatment with shoe polish on a taken apart item is another story : that was precisely what we were (or trying to) talking about.

[Brian S]

Now if you have a way for me to restore the leather for the next 100 years I'd be interested in hearing it.

For your future reference, here is a helmet never cleaned, never vaccumed, never polished, never been anything much less held but a couple of dozen times over the past 60 years.

http://www.vonetzel.com/pickle.htm