M17 Camo

[nzef1940]

My mistake! I meant to say depot painted helmets (not Factory done). By depot I mean as Chris has stated, helmets being painted on mass in a unit Depot, as opposed to individual field applied examples. The depot examples seem to be done to a higher or more generic standard, whearas the field painted ones vary considerably with the skill and materials available to the painter. I know and appreciate the views on my helmet, but will add that if you actually saw and handled it you may think differently.

[Edelweiss]

This term confusion is not especially yours Mike, I saw it made several times ; even in an eBan item's description BTW, but I admit that it's not the place where militaria infos are the most accurate.

I know and appreciate the views on my helmet, but will add that if you actually saw and handled it you may think differently.

I'd be happy to, that's the right way to proceed in this case, and also the best way to learn. But unfortunately, you're a bit far for that...

[ErichK]

I strongly suspect that NZEF1940's camo was painted as a souvenier by Americans post war as the blue shows up commonly on US doughboy camo helmets but never on German helmets, where the paint colors were specifically prescribed in an order by Ludendorf in August 1918(If I recall correctly). As Nzef1940 stated; even if it is a post war (1920) camo it is still fascinating in it's own right. I agree with that.
Regards,
Erich

[nzef1940]

Thanks for your comments, I would be interested to hear more about these doughboy painted helmets (as to why they painted them). Also here is a link to another non standard camo, with what appers to be blue paint. This seller also have a US doughboy camo helmet for sale.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ORIGINAL-WW1-CAM...QQcmdZViewItem

[ErichK]

The book "Painted Steel" by Chris Arnold talks about the business of camo painted as well as DI painted doughboy helmets and M16/18's. My reading is that virtually no doughboy lid was camo'd during the actual war but were in fact made to order for the boys to bring home. Sheds a whole new light on what one wants in ones collection. I have no issue with collecting any of these as they are, IMO, a valid area of collecting. The point for me is that I'm aware of the time frame in which they were made and can choose, or not, to have other than wartime done camo's in my collection - US, German or other.
PS; I looked at the ebay lid and it's not one that fits into my collecting parameters.
Regards,
Erich

[Edelweiss]

My reading is that virtually no doughboy lid was camo'd during the actual war but were in fact made to order for the boys to bring home.

Absolutely right : it was supposed to give - after the end of the war - a killer "been there" look to the helmet, and turn this way a common piece of headgear into an authentic relic, true witness of the trenchs' war. I had one of these till a few years ago : the camo was period but still very "fresh", and the helmet itself was barely worn : even the white label in the liner was still there, and in very good condition. For someone who's aware of the incredible living conditions in the hell of the Great War, it's obvious that this very lid never spent even one day in there.

That's mainly why I decided to part with it and unfortunately, I kept no photographical track of it...

[Edelweiss]

Thanks for your comments, I would be interested to hear more about these doughboy painted helmets (as to why they painted them). Also here is a link to another non standard camo, with what appers to be blue paint. This seller also have a US doughboy camo helmet for sale.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ORIGINAL-WW1-CAM...QQcmdZViewItem

It's maybe my eyes, or the photos, or my screen or all of these together, but for me there's no blue in this camo, but black...
(One of his doughboy's camo helmets shows some blue though.)

[nzef1940]

Interesting information re the doughboy camos, which this helmet may well be an example of, however a couple of things bother me.

a) Blue was used by the Germans on helmets, (though rarely) as was white and grey. I have seen a Kiwi vet bought back M16 with dark blue.

b)The wear on this helmet is signifigant and not staged.

c)Its is very dangerous to assume only the standard 3 colours were used in the field. Nothing was wasted and what-ever was available was used.

d) These helmets were not painted in a Model T style production facility, i.e mass produced with no variation.

Yes, this M17 it is likely a doughboy helmet, but WHY so much genuine wear? Look at the chinstrap and chinstrap attachment, they are identified as Austrian, is it crazy to think that this could be an Austrian camo variant?

[Chip M]

In my opinion, the paint job on the original helmet in this thread is not German pre-1919. Not even close.

Chip

[ErichK]

You ask; why so much genuine wear?
I imagine boys in 1919, like boys in 1946, played with their fathers war souveniers so "old wear" tells us nothing about when the lid was painted.
If you have documented proof of this color blue on a wartime German helmet I would love to see it.
You might try asking Tony from KaisersBunker to give his opinion, he has a collection of WW1 camos and I believe he has a thread going on this forum at the moment.

Interesting information re the doughboy camos, which this helmet may well be an example of, however a couple of things bother me.

a) Blue was used by the Germans on helmets, (though rarely) as was white and grey. I have seen a Kiwi vet bought back M16 with dark blue.

b)The wear on this helmet is signifigant and not staged.

c)Its is very dangerous to assume only the standard 3 colours were used in the field. Nothing was wasted and what-ever was available was used.

d) These helmets were not painted in a Model T style production facility, i.e mass produced with no variation.

Yes, this M17 it is likely a doughboy helmet, but WHY so much genuine wear? Look at the chinstrap and chinstrap attachment, they are identified as Austrian, is it crazy to think that this could be an Austrian camo variant?

[Chip M]

Well, I doubt that any documented proof could be obtained concerning much of anything that relates to the painting of German helmets... other than the original orders for the application of "camo" paint. Many things exist, that we just don't have documentation for. Look at the addition of the Hohenzollern Wappen shield to Garde Division helmets. We know from period photographic evidence that these were applied, but I am not aware of any documentation. That said, I have never seen blue paint added to a WWI German helmet that I thought was applied before the war ended. There are several other colors that I have seen on "camo" helmets that I would include in this category.

Chip

[90th Light]

Well, I doubt that any documented proof could be obtained concerning much of anything that relates to the painting of German helmets... other than the original orders for the application of "camo" paint. Many things exist, that we just don't have documentation for. Look at the addition of the Hohenzollern Wappen shield to Garde Division helmets. We know from period photographic evidence that these were applied, but I am not aware of any documentation. That said, I have never seen blue paint added to a WWI German helmet that I thought was applied before the war ended. There are several other colors that I have seen on "camo" helmets that I would include in this category.

Chip

Hello Chip, during WW1 the New Zealand government officially requested enermy war material for the establishment of a national war museum. A special unit of the A.N.Z.A.C. was set up for this purpose in conjunction with the Australians.

At least two examples of every enermy item was obtained by this unit. This included everything from the AV7 tank to the humble tunic button. A large quantity of Camo helmets were brought back to New Zealand and these were carefully described and numbered as inventory in the stock listing.

Sadly the war museum in New Zealand was never built but the one in Australia was. In NZ this war material was distributed to the regional and district councils to be place in local museums and halls for public display and interest.

I have seen alot of WW1 German helmets in New Zealand because of this and. there has been a real range of colours / styles in the Camos with a couple of surprises like one case each of French blue, odd red shade, yellow and a strange green. Many of these helmets were dumped in the 1970's and 80's because no one wanted them and they did not sell for very much money back then. Of course collectors have always grabbed what they have been able to but in some cases dumping was considered to be the right official course of action.

An interesting note to all of this is, the NZ official trophies unit which had to gather all this stuff in France/Germany 1917 to 1919 requested more motor transport which was turned down. Early in the Inventory you find 2 German staff cars and 2 German wagons described as "correctly put to use"

I agree that blue is very un-comman but not impossible. Also I would add however that collectors are correct to treat such helmets with extreme caution,

Chris