Att: New Update On Reichsmarine Visor

[picone]

Alright everyone. The long anticipated arrival has come.
To begin with I should state the WW2 Kriegs Caps are my specialty, not pre WW2. With that being said here are my thoughts:

The abzeichen is authentic IMO

The cap quality, heavy weight and all around look of a pre 30's German visor is there.

Now,what do some of you Imperial folks think. Here are the close clear pics. I will await in anxious anticipation. Thank you in advance, -Mike

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepmrue/s...res/reich6.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepmrue/s...res/reich3.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepmrue/s...res/reich2.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepmrue/s...res/reich1.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepmrue/s...res/reich4.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepmrue/s...res/reich5.jpg

[Carl Ellingstad]

Mike!

The insignia is 100% and even I never seen this spesific type of visor cap my impression is that its from the period. Simply love that insignia

[picone]

Thank you Carl for the nice comments. I too am in love with it thus far but still want everyone to weigh in on her before I decide to take her to bed
-Mike

[picone]

Jeepers! No one? -Mike

[Tony & Kaiser]

Mike, I was hoping someone with one of these would chime in, as a rule I do not add to a thread if I do not have one of the items in question. I have been trying for many, many years to find a Kasierliche-Marine officers visor.

I saw this one and decided not to bid. There were several reasons:

1. The huge air vents under the top which are very low and almost touching the band are something I have never seen on an original Imperial visor cap, and I have owned a lot of those. I have seen one original marine cap with air vents, but they were small, and in the typical position for German caps, centered under the overhang.

2. The lining circular stitching is not typical for an Imperial German visor cap or any sort. If anything, that is a feature very often found in WW1 British caps.

3. Kaiserliche-Marine insignia was sewn to a black mohair band for Seeoffizier, black silk for Marine-Ingenieure, or blue for Marine-Sanitäts-Offizier. This band was then slipped over the band, often the insignia is then tacked at the top. Your insignia is sewn directly to the cap.

These features led me to believe that this is an old blue cap of some sort, possibly Marine, that has had a nice original Kaiserliche -Marine insignia sewn to it. Again, these are just the reasons why I did not bid. Tony http://www.kaisersbunker.com

[picone]

Thank you Tony, I am glad you added your thoughts.

Here are my thoughts on the matter:

I think alot of things would have to come together to make this hat what it appears to be.

First you would have to spend a good dollar just to find a good abzeichen to put on it unless you have one lying around.

Second you would have to come across the correct visor style in the first place to even begin to undergo a reproduction project (ie: the correct chinstrap)

what concerns me is the chinstrap is indeed backwards. Granted the liner is marine blue and not messed with.

The smell is that of a 60 year or better cap.

In my opinion it is a very late cap perhaps even private issue but again no reference material to look at.

I am very tempted to remove the abzeichen to hopefully find a good natural shadow, but would be very upset if it did in fact have one. What do do

Anyway, it sure isn't Bears cap but I am at a crossroads here because I just HATE it when I have an item that can't be proved either way. Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[picone]

Well, thank you all for looking. Out side of Tony's opinion I'd say I am on my own for this one. I did attempt to look behind the badge and there does in fact seem to be a darker shadow without removing it completely. Even if I removed it I don't think I would be able to sew it back on without messing it up. Oh well, perhaps someday there will be a good reference book on these. -Mike

[Tony & Kaiser]

Mike, a good friend of mine who has several beautiful original Kaiserliche Marine officer caps (any one of which that I would kill for......) looked at your thread. I thought the insignia looked good, but that teaches me for posting on something I know nothing about. This is what he said:

Hi Tony:

This hat, as you already have stated, is a fake (actually, it's a 3rd Reich Veteran's Bund cap). However, that bullion Kaiserkrone mit Kokarde und Eichenlaub is also completely bogus. Look at this German eBay listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6197870751

It is the same insignia. The only difference is Picone's has been pickeled in brine to give it the aged look. There should always be an open area between the arches and "skullcap" of the crown, and the center panel of the coronet is a cross, flanked left and right by eagles; not the daisy chain pinwheel
abomination found on Picone's cap.

If Picone has a return privilege on that thing, please post this e-mail on the forum, and I will back up my position with pictures of the real goods when I can post.

I just can't allow another rip-off to succeed.

[Bear]

Hello Mike,

Here are some pics of my cap that I think is O.K. The more I see in this hobby the more confused I get. Just let me know if you want to see something specific.

barry

Pic of insignia...

[Bear]

Pic of the cap band...

[picone]

Believe me Bear, that teaches me to go outside my field of collecting. I still believe yours is the real deal, but again it looks like I lost any credibility I had in the pre ww2 cap department.
I wrote the seller about a refund but I probably have as much chance catching syphilis than I do ever seeing my money again. Well, after 15 years of collecting militaria this would be my first expensive mistake.
Tony, please tell your contact I am ever so appreciative. I am saddened but yet relieved that I know for certain the outcome. Now I will have to try and put this incident behind me and hope for a better future. -Mike

[epsomgreen]

Hello Mike:

I am Tony's friend, Charles, and I deeply regret, in this instance, the cavalry may have been too late in its ride to the rescue. It is also disheartening that my first post should serve the purpose of disparaging a fellow collector's hard sought treasure.

I have two blue Seeoffizier Schirmmützen in my collection and both are noticeably different. However, their common features are: a removable woven black mohair cap band (to which the Imperial Eichenlaub is affixed), no vent holes in the cap crown, and no green panel attached under the peak.

Unfortunately, there were many Third Reich Schirmmützen which closely resembled the design of the Kaiserliche Marine visor cap. One such example was worn by the Luftschutz House Watch, and this is what I believe your cap to be.



Whoever faked the cap must not have had access to the mohair band, otherwise, the deception would have been even more difficult to unravel. However, there is one feature of your cap which does appear to be authentic: the inclusion of genuine chinstrap buttons.

The Imperial Navy cap wreath and cockade is an amazing piece of insignia. I have a total of five caps and two more Eichenlauben and all seven are different. Pictures may be useful here.

Note the chinstrap on this example; it has two japanned buckles (an unusual, but not unheard of, variant):



A close-up of the insignia:



The interior; the peak lining is polished cotton, the sweatband is leather:



To better understand the features of the Kaiserkrone, the following metal crown is from the sleeve rank insignia. The center panel is a cross flanked by eagles:



No matter how abstractly embroidered, these panels will always bear semblance to the above in genuine insignia.

Finally, not all Marine Schirmmützen have a peak featuring a stitched welt. This example has a Vulkanfibre peak identical to the type found on army caps:



The embossed maker's label removes any doubt as to the cap's authenticity:



This cap also features a Cliché stamped metal Kaiserkrone:



As stated previously, no two are alike.

I hope this has helped a little. Mike, I do hope the seller will refund your money. Please feel free to include this post in your efforts.

Bear:

You have a wonderful Engineer Officer's cap there. It is completely correct. Congratulations!

Best wishes to all,

Charles

[Peter J.]

Thanks for a most informative thread Here'a another cap for examination
I don't really now what to think, to me it looks like a school cap. The top of the insignia is stitched to the cap and there are no vent holes. The buttons differ from the ones posted here. Still I'd like to hear your opinions.

KR
Peter

[Peter J.]

sidewiew

[Peter J.]

interior