Bavarian Military Order of Max Joseph Knight's Cross

[John T]

Bavarian Military Order of Max Joseph Knight's Cross. This one I have is marked 21K inside the ribbon ring. Can anybody tell me what the K stands for? Would it be a wearing copy or something different? Is there any way I can trace the recipient? Thanks, John

[John T]

More pictures, thanks

[VtwinVince]

Looks to be a wearing copy judging from the quality of construction. Award pieces were of very high quality, genuine gold, and were sequentially numbered, although they were 'recycled' through the Bavarian Orders Chancellery and were reissued to later recipients, so you'll see WW1 members of the order wearing much earlier crosses. I've seen similar pieces to yours, mostly bronze gilt, and dating them is difficult. What is the provenance on yours?

[John T]

HI Vince,

Thank you for the information.

I had purchased the bringbacks of a WW2 veteran from his son this summer. This was one of the medals. I will try to add more pictures if technical accommodations allow.

John

[GdC26]

Looks to be a wearing copy judging from the quality of construction. Award pieces were of very high quality, genuine gold, and were sequentially numbered, although they were 'recycled' through the Bavarian Orders Chancellery and were reissued to later recipients, so you'll see WW1 members of the order wearing much earlier crosses. I've seen similar pieces to yours, mostly bronze gilt, and dating them is difficult. What is the provenance on yours?

The engraving in the ring looks to be the style found on original awarded pieces, except that I've never seen the "K" before. Could that be for "Kopie", and could this therefore be a Zweitstück for piece 21, either private purchase or awarded (which although there were awarded copper gilt pieces, seems less likely because as I understand it, numbering simply continued)?

I'll dig out the awards list later today and see if I can find a WWI name for MMJO knights cross with Matrikelnummer 21.

[VtwinVince]

That's an interesting theory, and I do like the look of this piece, especially the suspension loop and the obvious signs of wear. Since there was always a shortage of award pieces of this order, you do come across 'Zweitstuecke' fairly frequently.

[GdC26]

I've checked my references, but have not been able to find a WWI list linking individuals to Matrikelnummer. Perhaps another member can help out.

[kaiserwilhelm2]

I've checked my references, but have not been able to find a WWI list linking individuals to Matrikelnummer. Perhaps another member can help out.

Not quite sure what you mean here. I thought there was a list linking recipient names with the number of the MJO awarded so you could find who wore MJO number 21.

As for the medal that started this thread, even for a wearer's jeweller made copy I would expect something showing better quality than what is shown. Also why include 21K at all in the ring unless this would denote 21 karat gold - just makes no sense including the number of an original on a copy. While including a number on the original serves a purpose, doing so on a copy does not. So even when somebody finds out which gentlemen wore MJO 21, I would not assume that one of them actually had this copy made. Possible other explanation for this medal: a proof of skill job for a jeweller's apprentice/student? That might come to think of it explain it being numbered.

[Deruelle]

Hi everybody


The K is for Kupfer. Only 29 crossses were maded with this letter. The cross with this letter has been made very latery in the War.


I was able to identify only two officers with K inside the ring on the 29 awarded.


Christophe

The engraving in the ring looks to be the style found on original awarded pieces, except that I've never seen the "K" before. Could that be for "Kopie", and could this therefore be a Zweitstück for piece 21, either private purchase or awarded (which although there were awarded copper gilt pieces, seems less likely because as I understand it, numbering simply continued)?

I'll dig out the awards list later today and see if I can find a WWI name for MMJO knights cross with Matrikelnummer 21.

[John T]

HI Christophe,

Thank you for this information, and to all who commented.

Very interesting.

John

[kaiserwilhelm2]

Hi everybody


The K is for Kupfer. Only 29 crossses were maded with this letter. The cross with this letter has been made very latery in the War.


I was able to identify only two officers with K inside the ring on the 29 awarded.


Christophe

That is indeed interesting. The marking with a K and the low number both make sense in this context. Might also explain the discolouring on the ring and crown which copper is prone to do over time.

Can we deduce from the fact that you have been able to id only 2 of the 29 that the list does not provide names for the rest?

However finding out the other 27 recipients should be possible considering these would be very late (1918) awardees and one may be able to reduce these late awardees with those who are registered with a numbered medal. Of course this will not likely produce just one recipient but at least you will have several possible names.

[GdC26]

That is indeed interesting. The marking with a K and the low number both make sense in this context. Might also explain the discolouring on the ring and crown which copper is prone to do over time.

Can we deduce from the fact that you have been able to id only 2 of the 29 that the list does not provide names for the rest?

However finding out the other 27 recipients should be possible considering these would be very late (1918) awardees and one may be able to reduce these late awardees with those who are registered with a numbered medal. Of course this will not likely produce just one recipient but at least you will have several possible names.

Tom,

"21" is the Martrikelnummer, which through the list I referenced in an earlier post, should be traceable to an individual recipient. I thought I had such lists in one or both of references I have on the MMJO, but I don't. Perhaps others do, and can trace award nr. 21 back to the awardee.

A further copper gilt specimen (without Matrikelnummer) can be found here: https://www.weitze.net/militaria/53/...l__269253.html

Emedals sold a specimen with Matrikelnummer some time ago (posted earlier by member CCJ, either here or on GMIC): https://www.emedals.com/bavaria-king...-no-436-c-1917 .

If this is an awarded specimen, as Christophe's interesting observation about the meaning of the letter "K" suggests/confirms, then that highlights the inherent dangers of the "lacking craftsmanship" approach ... I agree the quality of the piece shown does not match that of the earlier examples executed in gold, but that is something that is true more generally of prices produced with materials of lesser quality, like for example awarded Austrian awards executed in silver gilt (MMTO) or bronze-gilt (LO, OEK, FJO etc.). Those often are of lesser quality and finishing than their golden pre-war and early wartime counterparts - but that does not disqualify them as genuine awarded wartime pieces.

Sandro

[John T]

Hi all that responded to this thread. I was after this group for the better part of a year. The gentleman's father had brought back the items as war souvenirs. My main interest was the Croatian Navigator piece as it is hard to find a real one and the piece is also an early pattern with the pins on top and metal fitting on bottom. To find an original in a US vet grouping is a real prize. The German Air Gunner's Badge may have been worn by the same flier. I have attached a picture of the entire grouping of medals and pins for context. If this 21K marking can be traced to the recipient that will give "life' to this piece that has been hidden away in a closet for many years.

John

[kaiserwilhelm2]

Hi John,

Congrats on what looks like a nice haul. I can see the appeal of the Croatian flight badge - very pretty in a sort of fascist/communist mix kind of way - however that MJO is the main price and for any WWI collector like myself a great find. A lot less MJO's on the market than PLMs. I know some here - including a moderator - have more info on award numbers and recipients, I hope they chime in.

Cheers, Tom

[kaiserwilhelm2]

Tom,

"21" is the Martrikelnummer, which through the list I referenced in an earlier post, should be traceable to an individual recipient. I thought I had such lists in one or both of references I have on the MMJO, but I don't. Perhaps others do, and can trace award nr. 21 back to the awardee.

A further copper gilt specimen (without Matrikelnummer) can be found here: https://www.weitze.net/militaria/53/...l__269253.html

Emedals sold a specimen with Matrikelnummer some time ago (posted earlier by member CCJ, either here or on GMIC): https://www.emedals.com/bavaria-king...-no-436-c-1917 .

If this is an awarded specimen, as Christophe's interesting observation about the meaning of the letter "K" suggests/confirms, then that highlights the inherent dangers of the "lacking craftsmanship" approach ... I agree the quality of the piece shown does not match that of the earlier examples executed in gold, but that is something that is true more generally of prices produced with materials of lesser quality, like for example awarded Austrian awards executed in silver gilt (MMTO) or bronze-gilt (LO, OEK, FJO etc.). Those often are of lesser quality and finishing than their golden pre-war and early wartime counterparts - but that does not disqualify them as genuine awarded wartime pieces.

Sandro

Hi Sandro,

You are partly right. Now that we know it is a late war copper piece I do not so much have an issue with the quality of the piece. However before this was clear 21K, the state of it and the lesser quality of materials, workmanship created a few question marks - at least for me. I still wonder at the excessive wear/damage - why has this poor medal been so badly treated over the years? Nevertheless, not owning a MJO, I would still be very happy if one even in this shape would come to roost in my house.

Cheers, Tom