Imperial Goblet?

[Ferg 1]

I reckon it could be a silvered brass one ?
Ferg

[Gary B]

I am not aware of any silvered brass versions of the goblet. I only know of the 800 silver versions (early to mid war) and the silver plated iron ones (1917 to the end of the war). Sean states that his is silver but there are none of the mandated silver stamps on the "Dem Sieger im Luftkamfe" banner on his piece nor are there any other markings to denote silver content. I assume he is making the assumption it is silver based on its appearance in hand.

Carsten Baldes states in his book that airman who scored their first victory later in the war and who were awarded the goblet certificate may not have received the actual goblet by the end of the war due to the lengthy processing time for awarding the goblet. He further states that some of those airman chose to purchase a goblet on their own after the war's end.

In the book he shows an Ehrenbecher certificate awarded to a pilot that is dated August 1918 accompanied with a private purchase goblet. The goblet looks almost identical to wartime goblets with some minor differences; there is only an 800 silver mark (no crescent moon, crown and eagle), the balls of the feet appear to be aligned slightly different than the Pre Nov 18 versions and, I recall, the height is slightly different.

Given that this pilot scored his victory in July 1918 it is possible that he did not receive his goblet by the end of the war and chose to purchase one post Nov 1918. If that is the case here, it would explain why the piece is not marked with the 4 stamps required for silver content (if it is silver, which Sean states it is...could it be an unmarked silver piece?). It would also explain the maker mark at the bottom of the goblet that is not present on any known wartime goblet. Furthermore, my post war purchase theory offers an explanation for the location of the batch number - "36" is located on the bottom of the goblet where silver goblets had their batch number stamped. Iron goblets had the batch number on one of the balls. So if his is iron it has the batch number located where a silver goblet would have the number located. If it is a unmarked silver goblet the batch number is not one typically seen on a silver goblet.

Gary B

[VtwinVince]

I agree with Gary's theory about postwar acquisition, as I have never seen these markings either. And keep in mind that batch numbers only appear on a small number of goblets.

[vetoif]

Performed the magnet test, doesn't attract... There are no silver hallmarks present, but is silver!

[VtwinVince]

This one is a first for me, how about you Ferg?

[Gary B]

I sent a message off to Stephen Previtera and Carsten Baldes regarding this goblet. (Carsten is on vacation for the month)

To me what is the most significant aspect about this goblet is the maker mark on the bottom. If this can be identified we may have discovered the manufacturer of these, or at least one of the manufacturers.

Gary B

[Gary B]

I heard back from Carsten. The marking (initials with a locomotive) is already known and was used on the silver plated brass goblets. The maker is silverware company Bruckmann & Sohne from Heilbronn.

(Ferg, this is the first I have heard of a silvered brass goblet)

Gary B

[gmu]

I heard back from Carsten. The marking (initials with a locomotive) is already known and was used on the silver plated brass goblets. The maker is silverware company Bruckmann & Sohne from Heilbronn.

(Ferg, this is the first I have heard of a silvered brass goblet)

Gary B

This is most interesting! First time I hear of a brass goblet

[Gary B]

I assume they would be late war or early post war.

Gary B

[vetoif]

Bruckmann & Sohne

One of Bruckmann's son was a Railway engineer... Sample of one of his plated flatware pieces

[VtwinVince]

This is also news to me, as this marking is absent from all the literature. Regarding the chain with the Bulgarian award, there is also a House Order of Hohenzollern Member's Eagle. There is zero chance that Ehrloff would have received this award.

[vetoif]

Award

You are correct VV ! The bracelet belonged to his wife, she wore it, she is the one who received it probably ! They gave it to Gov. officials, teachers and so on. The documents that came with this grouping all have signatures and official seals of the kingdom of Prussia.... her name was Margarete Kuhnen 11AUG97.

[vetoif]

Documents

These also came from the family...

[VtwinVince]

Cool documents, I see some nice early Prussian signatures, including Wrangel.However, the wife wouldn't have gotten the HOH Adler, these were awarded primarily between 1890-1910 for long service, mostly for teachers.

[vetoif]

Bracelet

This is how she wore it, dunno if her Dad was a Member, or maybe Max's Mother, I am sure she wouldn't go around just wearing this if not somehow affiliated...