PLM, and the LDO era; makers/markings?

[Les]

Statement of fact: During WWII, "LDO" regulated the manufacture and marking of presumably -all- military awards within the Reich. If a recipient of a medal lost one, or it was damaged, he could get a replacement from an LDO outlet.

Here's the question: In the isntance of a PLM being lost, destroyed, or damaged, did the PLM fall under the LDO provisions, and if so, who made them for the Ordenskanzlerei/LDO, and how were they marked, or how would they have been marked? There might not be any known "LDO PLM's" but in theory, LDO was in the position to replace any that had been lost. Presumably, their catalogue would have listed/shown one (at least in "PRINZIP"..and I use that word knowing the impact it has on the German speaking mind/culture...<grin>). Also, wouldn't one expect at one example to be on the showroom floor in the main LDO outlet in Hauptstadt Berlin, in case Goering (prime buyer?) happened to want/need a new one?

Anyone on the Forum have an LDO catalogue, and is there a PLM in there?

Presumably if former General a.D. v. Etzel had forgotten to take everything out of his house before the bombs hit, and -nothing- was left, what would his options have been if he wanted to replace his medals during the LDO era? Would he have been required to get replcements through LDO, or...were "private" copies being made, and marked by jewelers who didn't follow LDO guide lines?

Steve, did you consider the aspect of LDO era "replacements" of the PLM, and how they'd have been marked?


Les

[Biro]

This question Les poses - particularly in relation to wartime LDO catalogues displaying PLM's - is an excellent one....and while sadly I can't contribute to the content, I too would be very interested in hearing the thoughts of anyone who feels they can, or who has an LDO catalogue, with or without an inclusion.

Despite what the fairly obvious consensus here is to 'wearers copies' , there must have been rare occaisions (destruction, loss or theft) when legitimate replacements would have been required, and one would expect the LDO might have considered this also.... .

so Back To The Top for Les..

[PaulChep]

I have 2 catalogues back home and will check for PLMs when I return. As best I can remember there were not any PLMs in them, but I'll see.

[Rich G]

Perhaps the PLM came under the same rules as the RK, in that you could not just buy one but had to request a replacement through the authorised channel? Then I would say perhaps no marking was required, especially not an L/ number?

Rich

[George Stimson]

Is there such a thing as an "LdO catalog"?

[Les]

I have 2 catalogues back home and will check for PLMs when I return. As best I can remember there were not any PLMs in them, but I'll see.

Thanks Paul. Could you also give the catalogues a quick once over to get a sense of how many other WWI-era/Imperial medals were listed? For example, the House Hohenzollern's, some of the other "enamels" such as the Saxon "Albert", the Bavarian Military Merit, etc. There weren't likely to have been many WWII officers entitled to wear a RAO4, for example. I wonder if LDO tended to regulate the "all metal" medals typical of the 3rd Reich era, and placed less importance on metal/enamel. Certain medals might not have been listed or on obvious display, but still any re-issue of Imperial medals certainly fell under their regulations.

Regards,

Les

[Bob Hritz]

I would think anyone who wanted a replacement Pour le Merite would go to Godet, Wellner, or one of the old court jewelers and order a new one made. The molds/dies were surely available. The majority of awardees were of the upper class and would probably rather order, and pay for, one than deal with the bureaucratic mentality of the 3rd Reich.


Bob Hritz

[Tim Tezer]

Perhaps the PLM came under the same rules as the RK, in that you could not just buy one but had to request a replacement through the authorised channel? Then I would say perhaps no marking was required, especially not an L/ number?

Rich

I think they would have had to buy one. It doesn't makes sense they would have to request one through the 3rd Reich German government, as that government never issued the PLM in the first place. Bob's idea makes more sense: they would probably go to one of the original manufacturers. I have never seen a post-1942 catalog from Godet or Wagner, and I'm not sure whether such a thing exists. In general, original catalogs of medals and military insignia from before 1945 are very hard to come by, and very few of them ever offered the PLM because of the very small demand.

Tim

[Biro]

......It doesn't makes sense they would have to request one through the 3rd Reich German government, as that government never issued the PLM in the first place......Tim

Hi Tim

....but the 3rd Reich Government never issued '14 EK1's either...and yet we see them LDO marked...in this case by Juncker...??

Marshall

[Tim Tezer]

Hi Tim

....but the 3rd Reich Government never issued '14 EK1's either...and yet we see them LDO marked...in this case by Juncker...??

Marshall

Good point. Just because I've never seen an LDO marked PLM certainly doesn't mean they don't exist. They are at least a theoretical possibility. But they wouldn't have been issued by the government, they simply would have been purchased from a licensed manufacturer. So if anyone has any catalogs from that period....

Tim

[Rick Research]

The June 1940 Otto Schickle catalog that Gordon Williamson discovered a couple of years ago shows a PLM of the "pie wedge" type, but in pages of "displays" (it is next to a Commander grade Baden Zähringen Lion Order X, for instance) that do not show item numbers or prices. Presumably these were "items on request" that may have been obtained wholesale elsewhere for specific customers.

With roughly 700 recipients, many dead by WW2, there would not have been any market demand for such items In Stock.

The reason 1914 EK1s are found with LDO numbers is very simple:

post 1939 restrikes of the 1914 EK are made with 1939 sized frames, which are larger than the WW1s. While a ONE PIECE combination with Spange was hardly a "restrike" for the BACK, it used the same FRONT frame, and rather than two sizes, they went with ONE, for the 1939. I have never seen a 1914-size LDO 1914 EK.

I have a grotesque example of a post 1939 replaced 1914 EK2 on a Frackspange next to an HHOX, someplace in the back pages. Of course, since EK2s were only worn in full dress, and EK1s were worn every single day, there are far more replacement EK1s.

[medalnet]

special requests

I absolutely share Rick’s opinion. Those house orders were way to complicated to be manufactured by some newcomer after 1918. With companies like Godet, Hemmerle, Zimmerman,...around it was easiest to special order those from the former official manufacturer.
Even in those days before 1918 foreign manufactures would get back to those official court jewelers to fill special requests. I do have a few order decorations in my collection that are clearly made by e.g. Zimmerman and show Rothe markings.

[Rick Research]

Here's my "Beauty and the Beast" post-1939 EK2 1914 and a WW1 Hohenzollern House OrderX, side by side. If there was a maker mark on this ring, I can't see it, since it is sewn down:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.net/foru...48&postcount=4

Steinhauer & Lück re-made most Imperial awards, which thanks to the etchings of PHOTOGRAPHS of their pre-war 1939 wares are identifiable for their never-marked products.

They did not get into the complex enamelled old Orders, either.

Hazarding a guess, I'd say that the ONLY restrikes of Imperial awards to ever be LDO marked were Iron Crosses. NOT because they were "replacements" (as in issued for free) but because the pieces of stamped frames (and potentially rings-- I've never seen one so marked) were ALREADY marked, and would have come out of the same stock bins for 1939+ EKs regardless of which war's iron center was assembled with them, for private purchase as duplicates.

LDO licensing applied only to the CURRENT German government's awards, not to the defunct imperial federal states' decorations.

[medalnet]

Steinhauer &amp; Lück

Well, Steinhauer & Lück was actually the manufacturer for those WWII badges without swastika and all other decorations that were part of the new orders and decorations law in the new Bundesrepublik Deutschland from July 26, 1957. PlM recipients were still around those days.<O</O

A very good friend of mine was involved in solidifying the remaining stock in the late 1980th. Among those WWII badges there were wound badges, WWI, Hanseatic crosses and, believe it or not, PlMs made by Steinhauer & Lück. Of course the quality was 1950th. Bronze gilt enameled in poor quality. Similar to the current Bundesverdienstkreuz.<O

For all who like to read the whole Ordensgesetz:<O

http://www.struemer-phaleristik.de/57/ordensgesetz/ordensgesetz.html

[Biro]

Hazarding a guess, I'd say that the ONLY restrikes of Imperial awards to ever be LDO marked were Iron Crosses, because the pieces of stamped frames were ALREADY marked......

You are, of course, completely correct!!

The EK frames were already stamped.

My apologies to Tim....

Golden rule?

Engage brain before posting.

Incidentally Les, the closest I could come to wartime catalogue with PLM is this Godet catalogue from the 30's. A Pie wedge by the looks.

Thanks for the info Andreas...

Marshall