Imperial documents

[l-marcin]

Hello,

I have bought some Prussian documents recently ( Militarpass and Ueberweisungnationale). I have some questions concerning that.

Firstly, what is the difference between them ( besides the diffrenece in name, of course)?

I would like to know also Why the covers' colours are different? What does it dependent on?

Is it possible to get any additional information about units besides Standard OOB? (The battles soldiers took part in, for example) The documents include information about that but deciphering the handwriting is sometimes impossible.

Thank you in advance for your answer.

Best regards,
l-marcin.

These are the documents I have (for example):
Kgl. Sächs. 1. (Leib-)Grenadier-Regiment Nr.100
Füsilier-Regiment von Gersdorff (Kurhessisches) Nr. 80

[Frosch]

Hello l-marcin,

The Militärpass was usually held by the regiment or other unit in which the soldier served and updated as and when necessary. The Überweisungsnationale contained the same information, but was held by the authorities at home to provide a back-up of the information and as a permanent record that could not be lost at the front.

Pre-1914 Militärpass covers had different colours depending on the issuing state and arm or branch of service. As these were used up and the war economony started to suffer, a standardised blue format based on the Prussian pattern was used more and more. You will sometimes find a Militärpass with extra pages added or the entire Militärpass sewn inside an Ersatzreservepass or Überweisungsnationale.

A lot of additional information can be found besides the standard OOB for the larger units, but you will either have to visit the remaining archives in Germany, which I have not done yet, or you have to invest in campaign and regimental histories and do a lot of research to find out what happened on the day "your man" was wounded, for example.

Although I don't have them, I am fairly confident that regimental histories exist for the units you mention. They are not easy to find, but take a look at www.zvab.com and www.geocities.com/FJ_VF168

The handwriting can be very difficult to decipher, but practice will help.

Congratulations on your first two documents. Be careful, they can be addictive. I have more than 300 and I find them fascinating.

All the best,

David

[Bob Lembke]

Militaer-Paesse

Hi, I-marcin;

Every time I read something by David on these documents I learn things. I only have 30-40. Every time I look closely at one I learn things about the Imperial Army.

One or possibly both of your Paesse are not Prussian. (I am too lazy to pull something down and see if Kur=Hessen was part of Prussia; the Imperial Army was actually four armies; Prussian, Bavarian, Saxon, and Wuerttenburg.

The Paesse forms seem to have been privately supplied, and were produced in many versions; one cause of color differences. I have not studied this in any detail. The color often reflected the branch of the service and other differences; for example, a lot of Prussian Guard Paesse (but not my father's) were in an unusual grey/beige color.

Reading them is quite hard, which may be why there does not seem as much interest in these as I feel they deserve. There is an enormous amount of history to be found in these documents.

I am writing a history of the Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment (Flammenwerfer), and would like to write one on Sturm=Bataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr). I have one original (my father's) and one copy of Paesse for the former unit, and one copy of a Pass for the latter unit. (I would also like to write a book about Jaeger=Storm=Bataillon Nr. 3.) Each one has provided what I feel are important insights into the organization, etc. of these units. Anyone who has Paesse from one of these units would be blessed by the Great Pumpkin if they would contact me and perhaps provide a copy of such a Pass. I would be happy to negotiate compensation, which could take many forms.

David has started an available index of many of his Paesse. Such an index, if expanded, could develop into a powerful tool for the study of WW I. (If this seems crazy; I have a German friend who would like to develop the creation of a roster of (hopefully) many of the soldiers of the Imperial German Army. I have sketched out a design for a process and data system that could advance such an ambitious effort. Paesse, of course, would be a wonderful and detailed source for data for such a data base.)

Bob Lembke

[David Müldner]

Hi, I-marcin;


One or possibly both of your Paesse are not Prussian. (I am too lazy to pull something down and see if Kur=Hessen was part of Prussia; the Imperial Army was actually four armies; Prussian, Bavarian, Saxon, and Wuerttenburg.

Bob Lembke

Dear Bob,

Unfortunately, the prussians took over Kurhessen after the Seven Weeks war in 1866, as a enthousiast on the country, I am always a bit to eager to give info I'm afraid

Furthermore, these Paesse look very interesting, I will surely ckeck out David's site!!

[Chip M]

Bob,

Have you considered showing us some of the salient pages from your father's documents? Or will we have to wait for the book? I don't know how old you are, but I can't wait much more than about 15-20 years!

By the way, I know it would be an enormous undertaking that would take decades to build, but I would love to see a data base created based on the existent military documents of the WWI German soldier...one that could be sorted by regiment, division, army corps and the owner of the material. It would be an ultimate reseach tool. I'm ready to start!

Chip

[David Müldner]

I am writing a history of the Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment (Flammenwerfer), and would like to write one on Sturm=Bataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr). I have one original (my father's) and one copy of Paesse for the former unit, and one copy of a Pass for the latter unit. (I would also like to write a book about Jaeger=Storm=Bataillon Nr. 3.)
Bob Lembke

Dear Bob,

I am curious, what kind of sources do you use for history of the GRPB? I always was under the impression that most of the data on the german imperial army was bombed and gone by 1945

David

[Bob Lembke]

My Book and Sources

Chip;

My book on G=R=P=R is mostly written, and I have a publisher. But there are complications, so I now hope to see it in print at the end of this year or perhaps early 2006. I plan to keep working on the topic, so there might also be some sort of later follow-up. Additionally, I have some very rare sources, both German and French (the latter a 1921 classified 70 page army document on FW) that I might also eventually publish, possibly privately, possibly in a facsimile/English translation on facing pages version, so that this material does not again sink into the sands of time.

I have a German e-friend, a major collector of military histories, who would like to create a database that would attempt to, as much as possible, in effect re-create the rolls of the entire Imperial Army, Landser by Landser. Unfortunately he is enormously busy in his work life, and is not a high-level computer techie, but an executive. I spent a lot of my working life designing, building, and using major data-bases, and I have sketched out for him a sketch design of a system that could start to build such a data-base. It seems really crazy, but it is really not, and I could imagine that such a project could build a data-base of about 2,000,000 men, in particular those who died and the officer corps. (I myself have built a data-base of about 1200 men of the G=R=P=R with generally at least six data items on each; three years ago I knew the names of two men from the unit, including my father, and had one of the names, the CO, wrong, as US military intelligence also had it.) Such a system would rely on the owners of data, such as Paesse, death cards, official histories, etc. entering their data. There would have to be protection from idiots putting in bad data, incentives for people to enter their data, etc. Possibly those who put in data could use it free, others might have to pay a small amount for look-ups to meet the cost of the server, etc.

For curious reasons, my father's Militaer=Pass is missing a lot of information that is usually found in all Paesse. I don't plan to post pages of it at the present time. I have a copy of another Pass from the unit; every one I look out reveals important things about this interesting unit.

David;

I have some remarkable sources that I feel I must keep under my hat until the book is published. In particular there are two major sources that seem to be almost totally unknown in the English-speaking world. (I recently came across one person in the US who knows of and has these documents, and I have also supplied them to my writing partner.) My wife has been a buyer of international books for a major research library for 20 years, and has access to a single database that covers most books in most of the libraries of Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. (No, us ordinary mortals cannot access this data-base.) She found a scrap of a reference to a possible source, and I started to write major German libraries, and finally one wrote back and said that they had it and offered me a copy! (Xeroxed, of course.) I later found a second important document. I have the complete death roll of the G=R=P=R; I was about to organize a burglery (sp?) of a Berlin church, which had a copy in a shrine in the church, when I was able to get a copy by less dramatic means. I have about 65 German official histories, and dozens of Feldpost from and to my father while with this unit. From the say 300-400 sources that I have used, 80% in German or French, I have built a time-line listing FW actions, events, losses, etc. that is now about 250 pages long. I have an endless supply of leads that I never will be able to completely track down.

Bob Lembke

PS: Sorry for the delay in responding to your interesting questions.

[David Müldner]

Thanks for your reply Bob!

It does make me curious: does the name Müldner pop up in your database of soldiers?

Hope you finish your book soon.....I cant wait

[Bob Lembke]

Mueldner

David;

I can't give you a quick absolute answer (my data-base is about 40 pages now growing to about 60 pages of names, data), but I quickly determined that no Mueldner died in the service of the G=R=P=R or its auxilliary units. The death roll is the basis of about 900 of the 1200 men in the data-base. Did a relative serve in it? I have to run out the door now, and a complete search would take possibly a half hour. The organization is sort of complex to meet my own needs.

Bob Lembke

[Bob Lembke]

Mueldner and Mink

David;

More time, went thru the whole data-base and did not find a Mueldner. However, it is probably less than 20% of the men that served in G=R=P=R at one time or another.

Chip;

However, while cruising the "M"s for David, I did find a Viz=Feldwebel Mink (not Minx), who commanded a platoon of the 8th Company on an attack (three Zugen, 30 Flammenwerfern) on April 24, 1918. He seemed to survive the war. No relation, I assume.

Bob Lembke

[Chip M]

Bob,

Interesting information, but most likely only a very distant relative. My family name was originally Minks, so who knows? It is an Anglo-Saxon name.

Thanks Bob.

Chip

[David Müldner]

Thanks Bob, thats just to bad, but it was nothing more than a gamble from my side.

Thanks again and hope to see your book real soon.

David

David;

More time, went thru the whole data-base and did not find a Mueldner. However, it is probably less than 20% of the men that served in G=R=P=R at one time or another.

Chip;

However, while cruising the "M"s for David, I did find a Viz=Feldwebel Mink (not Minx), who commanded a platoon of the 8th Company on an attack (three Zugen, 30 Flammenwerfern) on April 24, 1918. He seemed to survive the war. No relation, I assume.

Bob Lembke