military max joseph order vs plm

[blind pew]

The Military Max Joseph Order Knight's Cross seems to be a relatively under-appreciated award in ww1 relative to the Pour Le Merite. There was about 1/3 the number of MMMJO awards relative to the PLM, and many of those awarded were previously awarded pieces that were "passed down" from the Napoleanic Wars to WW1 combatants. Like the PLM, the MMJO was required to be returned to the awarding entity (Bavaria) upon the death of the recipient. Unlike the PLM, this actually happened with some degree of frequency, such that many awards were previously issued and its "history" traced by the numbered award.

The "Blue Max" is presumably named so, as it is the blue Prussian equivalent of the MMJO, thus the title "Max".

Any thoughts on the relative collector popularity of the PLM related to the MMJO?

[otter76]

Wasn't blue max supposed to be nicknamed after Immelmann got his in 1915 ?

[otter76]

I do agree the MMJO being a rarer award but just according to price not quite undervalued. They are salty too

[blind pew]

Wasn't blue max supposed to be nicknamed after Immelmann got his in 1915 ?

That is one theory. The prevailing assumption is that the MMJO, being white, was Bavaria's highest award while the PLM, being blue enamel, was the Prussian equivalent, thus the "blue max".

Another theory is that both awards were the highest for their prinicipality, thus being the maximum award or "max".

[blind pew]

I do agree the MMJO being a rarer award but just according to price not quite undervalued. They are salty too

I guess you are right, in that the price approximates that of a pour le merite (perhaps a little lower), but is not cheap by any means. It just seems like you see a relatively large number of PLMs relative to actual period MMJOs. Certainly there were 1/3 awarded in ww1, but the relative frequency seen on sites and posted is pretty low.

Witness the number of MMJOs posted on this site relative to PLMs.

[Hagrid]

(...) Another theory is that both awards were the highest for their prinicipality, thus being the maximum award or "max".

Excusemyfrench - but that´s rubbish!
(What I wanted to say is that in german language, especially for the time of WW1, this explanation makes absolutely no sense: Not only that the abbreviation „max“ for maximum is not in use , even nowadays - if it would have been, the medal would have been called „Das blaue Max“ instead of „Der blaue Max“)
Regarding the number of appearance: The prussians outnumbered the bavarians by far -
i.e. there were about eight times more imperial vs. bavarian pilots...and so is the amount of according badges

Regards
Hagrid

[blind pew]

Excusemyfrench - but that´s rubbish!
(What I wanted to say is that in german language, especially for the time of WW1, this explanation makes absolutely no sense: Not only that the abbreviation „max“ for maximum is not in use , even nowadays - if it would have been, the medal would have been called „Das blaue Max“ instead of „Der blaue Max“)
Regarding the number of appearance: The prussians outnumbered the bavarians by far -
i.e. there were about eight times more imperial vs. bavarian pilots...and so is the amount of according badges

Regards
Hagrid

I was simply recounting the three theories that have been circulated regarding the name "Blue Max". Those are not my theories, but those that have been put forward on this site and others

[Hagrid]

No personal offense intended ...
Regards
Hagrid

[blind pew]

No personal offense intended ...
Regards
Hagrid

Its okay. I agree that the "max" theory seems to be the least valid of those purported.

Obviously, no one knows for sure, but either the MMJO or the Max Immelman tale are probably the origins of the "blue max" title.

Interestingly, I just purchased a MMJO grouping, which should be here next week. I have several PLMs, but have not had a MMJO. This particular one was "passed down" from previous recipients in the Napoleanic wars and the Austria-Germany war to the final recipient from Verdun. I find the MMJOs that have the multiple award histories to be fascinating.

[Gary B]

I had never heard the other 2 theories (Maximum award and Blue equivalent) before but they seem like something of collecting lore.

I hope you post your new group when you get it. Sounds like a very interesting group.

Gary B

[blind pew]

I had never heard the other 2 theories (Maximum award and Blue equivalent) before but they seem like something of collecting lore.

I hope you post your new group when you get it. Sounds like a very interesting group.

Gary B

I'll post when I get it. It has some enamel damage (which I never care about), but I expect that from an award worn for a period of time, particularly one over 200 years old that was worn by three recipients.

I never understood the desire for "pristine" awards. When I see a "mint" example of a PLM, I always think "unworn". Very few, if any, worn PLMs have no enamel damage whatsoever, unless a recipient used a Godet "wearer's piece" instead of the awarded cross.

It will be good to post it here, as there have been very few period MMJOs posted on this site. Obviously, they are kind of weird, in that they are very small compared to other imperial awards. When people first see one, they are somewhat disappointed by the size!

[Gary B]

Dear blind pew,

I do look forward to seeing this award. I agree it is a rather small award given the size of other comparable awards from other Duchys, Principalities etc. I assume yours is numbered.

I have always enjoyed your postings and I know this one will be another great posting.

I will be posting my PLM later...but it will disappoint you since it is mint I am a mint collector, but also can appreciate a nice worn piece with a great history.

Gary B

[blind pew]

Dear blind pew,

I do look forward to seeing this award. I agree it is a rather small award given the size of other comparable awards from other Duchys, Principalities etc. I assume yours is numbered.

I have always enjoyed your postings and I know this one will be another great posting.

I will be posting my PLM later...but it will disappoint you since it is mint I am a mint collector, but also can appreciate a nice worn piece with a great history.

Gary B

Sorry Gary-

My intent was not to diminish "mint" awards at all. In every measure, they are valued higher than the "beat up" ones I like.

It is simply personal preference; any original PLM is delightful to see, as they really appear "special" when held in hand. They really exude quality and one can immediately see the appeal beyond that which they carry for the awarded action.

[Gary B]

Sorry Gary-

My intent was not to diminish "mint" awards at all. In every measure, they are valued higher than the "beat up" ones I like.

It is simply personal preference; any original PLM is delightful to see, as they really appear "special" when held in hand. They really exude quality and one can immediately see the appeal beyond that which they carry for the awarded action.

No worries, no need to apologize...I did not take offense, I was just joking with you.

Look forward to seeing the historical piece.

Gary B

[blind pew]

No worries, no need to apologize...I did not take offense, I was just joking with you.

Look forward to seeing the historical piece.

Gary B

Okay- again, no intent to offend. God knows there is too much of that going about on the internet.

Looking forward to seeing your PLM.