uboot badge I WK

[Brian L.]

Fsee,

You will note that the design between mine and bolewts58 are identical as is the "creator/designer" mark (not maker) on the reverse. For me the mark on the reverse has always been the easiest way to authenticate one of these badges. The last "T" in Schott has an extra long top portion and there is no vertical leg for the 1st "T" in the mark.

Gary B

Yes. The other thing I forgot to mention is that Schott badges have striations on the reverse as seen on both your gilt badge and the one I posted. fsee's badge lacks these striations.

[Ron P]

The front design is not correct. The reverse hardware and maker mark is wrong.

I agree 100%.

[fsee]

Okay you may be correct, but I am going to keep researching. I find it odd that someone would go to the trouble of making a nicely detailed and well made badge with all of these differences. Someone earlier in this thread mentioned that Schott was the man who designed the u-boat badge. If this is accurate, wouldn't it stand to reason that the design was produced by different makers using different dies?

All I am say is that we should all keep an open mind about variations on badges. Some variations may be repros and some may be period made badges by different makers. If we don't keep an open mind, we may lose out on some nice pieces and may also tag an old wives tale as fact. I'm not casting doubt or dispersion on anyone, just making a comment.

As an aside, I can remember forum members going round and round about WWII U-Boat badges, Schott's I think, with the subs having no propellors and some having them. The ones missing a propellor were supposed to be "fakes" and the ones with long T's were, or were not originals. I think some friendships were lost on that go-round, until a book came out showing a famous u-boat captain displaying his war time and post-war awards and badges. Guess what was displayed? A Scott badge with no propellor........

[Don D.]

"As an aside, I can remember forum members going round and round about WWII U-Boat badges, Schott's I think, with the subs having no propellors and some having them. The ones missing a propellor were supposed to be "fakes" and the ones with long T's were, or were not originals. I think some friendships were lost on that go-round, until a book came out showing a famous u-boat captain displaying his war time and post-war awards and badges. Guess what was displayed? A Scott badge with no propellor........"

Again wrong. Schott was not involved in WW2 production. Perhaps you mean Schwerin?

[fsee]

"As an aside, I can remember forum members going round and round about WWII U-Boat badges, Schott's I think, with the subs having no propellors and some having them. The ones missing a propellor were supposed to be "fakes" and the ones with long T's were, or were not originals. I think some friendships were lost on that go-round, until a book came out showing a famous u-boat captain displaying his war time and post-war awards and badges. Guess what was displayed? A Scott badge with no propellor........"

Again wrong. Schott was not involved in WW2 production. Perhaps you mean Schwerin?

No, there will be no schwerin' nor fahrvergnügen on this thread. One last question: Is that an oyster on your lip? Nein, it schnott...

[Gary B]

I am not sure where this thread is going.

Walter Schott is not a manufacturer of the U-Boat badge, he was the designer. Fec is, I recall, Latin for creation/design.

Schott's name did not appear on any WWII U-Boat badges. Schwerin, among others, was a manufacturer of the WWII U-Boat badge. I believe you are confusing the propeller issue with Schwerin badges.

Research, or hope, as you may the first 2 badges posted in this thread are not considered original. Design wise, hardware wise, Schott marking etc. They are copies of an original badge. Wondering why someone would go to all the trouble to make a fake with marks as such is exactly why fakers do so...to sell as original. These badges have been researched and written about extensively in the various forums.

As Don stated earlier in this thread the early versions had a green finish to the badge which, in most cases, has been worn or buffed away over the ensuing decades.

Gary B

[Brian L.]

fsee

Your badge has appeared regularly on eBay in recent years and is acknowledged by everyone to be fake. There are versions of this fake marked as 800 silver. Some have coke bottle pins, some are engraved, all meant to deceive. There has been a great deal written on multiple forums about high-quality Imperial UBoat fakes. Once exposed, nobody but those in denial continue to accept them as genuine.

Here is one such discussion on GMIC from 2010. Your badge figures prominently in the discussion.

http://gmic.co.uk/topic/42570-schott-u-boat-badges/

By your own admission, you've been off this forum and perhaps out of collecting for awhile. In that time, with the advent of laser die cutting and 3D printing, the quality of reproductions has risen dramatically to become convincing to many but the most knowledgeable. Extremely detailed new dies have been created with the aid of computer digitizing for almost every badge, medal and order ever awarded by the Germans, as well as other nations. Often, these new dies are more detailed and of higher quality than originals. Yet if you know where to look, they are betrayed by what can be called "computer graphic markers". The surface details on the obverse of your badge are excellent. But, in fact, that in itself is a red flag.

Don and I have already pointed out a number of general details that are wrong on your badge. But, like others I don't want to go into more specifics at the risk of alerting the fakers so they can make changes and improve their work.

We all have open minds, contrary to what you may be suggesting. But, you've heard from extremely knowledgeable people with many years collecting experience, who have handled many genuine variations of this badge and who keep up to date on all the latest reproductions coming on the market.

I understand your resistance to the truth, given the fact that you've also taken a hit on the other two threads about your dubious 1813 EKs. But, there's no agenda here. People are trying to help you. if you choose to ignore the obvious, nothing more can be said.

[Brian L.]

As Don stated earlier in this thread the early versions had a green finish to the badge which, in most cases, has been worn or buffed away over the ensuing decades. Gary B

It was actually me who mentioned this. But, Don has certainly commented on it over the years whenever there's been a discussion of Schott badges.

[fsee]

fsee

Your badge has appeared regularly on eBay in recent years and is acknowledged by everyone to be fake. There are versions of this fake marked as 800 silver. Some have coke bottle pins, some are engraved, all meant to deceive. There has been a great deal written on multiple forums about high-quality Imperial UBoat fakes. Once exposed, nobody but those in denial continue to accept them as genuine.

Here is one such discussion on GMIC from 2010. Your badge figures prominently in the discussion.

http://gmic.co.uk/topic/42570-schott-u-boat-badges/

By your own admission, you've been off this forum and perhaps out of collecting for awhile. In that time, with the advent of laser die cutting and 3D printing, the quality of reproductions has risen dramatically to become convincing to many but the most knowledgeable. Extremely detailed new dies have been created with the aid of computer digitizing for almost every badge, medal and order ever awarded by the Germans, as well as other nations. Often, these new dies are more detailed and of higher quality than originals. Yet if you know where to look, they are betrayed by what can be called "computer graphic markers". The surface details on the obverse of your badge are excellent. But, in fact, that in itself is a red flag.

Don and I have already pointed out a number of general details that are wrong on your badge. But, like others I don't want to go into more specifics at the risk of alerting the fakers so they can make changes and improve their work.

We all have open minds, contrary to what you may be suggesting. But, you've heard from extremely knowledgeable people with many years collecting experience, who have handled many genuine variations of this badge and who keep up to date on all the latest reproductions coming on the market.

I understand your resistance to the truth, given the fact that you've also taken a hit on the other two threads about your dubious 1813 EKs. But, there's no agenda here. People are trying to help you. if you choose to ignore the obvious, nothing more can be said.

I really don't take issue with any of the comments here. Like all of us, I've been burned and when it is shown to be a logical explanation, I accept the fact that I have owned fakes. On the other hand, I am relentless when it comes to research and proving points, and I have to be convinced before I accept the diagnosis of a fake or repro. Please don't anyone take it personal or feel like I am trying to be argumentative.

I have seen a lot of money lost, and/or opportunities passed by when using information from forums, any forums. Pieces get labeled as fakes or repros when they are not, and collectors get stuck with these pieces and it hurts their pocketbooks because of a long time, popular forum member makes a two word comment with little or no explanation. It's only human. We get in a hurry and just might not have the time to write a thesis about a piece. Just remember, though, a lot of new collectors are coming here to learn and research and the toys we play with are expensive. It's my opinion that if we are going to post things for comments or questions, we owe it to the members and the visitors to keep our comments educational and helpful. That said, we need to have fun while we do this. I'll shut up now...

[Brian L.]

fsee. I get your point and nobody is infallible. But, there are a handful of people on here whose opinion carries considerable weight because over the years they've proven time again to be correct. Now when they speak essentially in shorthand and give a thumbs up or thumbs down, it's taken as gospel. The lack of specific details of what is wrong with certain pieces is as I stated to prevent fakers from learning from their mistakes.

If I'm ever asked to elaborate in any signficant way about those things for which my opinion is valued, I usually do it in a PM to avoid information getting out to the wrong people.

The best advice is to always be more knowledgeable than the fakers or ask those that are. This forum as well as GMIC, Feldgrau, War Relics etc. provides multiple sources of first-hand expert opinion and information that is often more valuable than what is in reference books and/or is opinion and information that comes from reference authors who are also forum members.

[fsee]

fsee. I get your point and nobody is infallible. But, there are a handful of people on here whose opinion carries considerable weight because over the years they've proven time again to be correct. Now when they speak essentially in shorthand and give a thumbs up or thumbs down, it's taken as gospel. The lack of specific details of what is wrong with certain pieces is as I stated to prevent fakers from learning from their mistakes.

If I'm ever asked to elaborate in any signficant way about those things for which my opinion is valued, I usually do it in a PM to avoid information getting out to the wrong people.

The best advice is to always be more knowledgeable than the fakers or ask those that are. This forum as well as GMIC, Feldgrau, War Relics etc. provides multiple sources of first-hand expert opinion and information that is often more valuable than what is in reference books and/or is opinion and information that comes from reference authors who are also forum members.

I understand and respect your points. I, too, have collected EK's for about 45 years, I've followed this forum on and off since I joined as Doug See on 12/11/2000. I am by no means an expert and try to learn every day. I've probably PO'ed a lot of folks on this forum over the years who deserved it because they were crooks on eBay, racists, blowhards, mentally unbalanced, chemically imbalanced, and also some good and honest people who did not deserve it. I apologize to the latter. I also try to help out when I feel I've got something to offer.

This forum is is a valuable resource and a fantastic pool of knowledge. But, we are all human, all of us are fallible, and as in any group setting there is a tendency for people to want to play "follow the leader", especially if the leader is likable and respected. Unfortunately, this can create false information or lack of information to be accepted as truth or fact. That's why I feel it's helpful to ask and answer questions without getting defensive. I am not saying this to aim it at anyone in particular, just a general statement that applies to me, or anyone. I don't worry about telling the fakers something they might not know, because I believe the more information we share to help us all recognize good or bad pieces, the better armed we are to spot repros, copies, fakes, wearers' copies, or whatever. And...I agree there are good times to use PM'ing to share questions or answers.

[fsee]

Here is a badge that looks like a cast copy of the one I have. You can see that the little "tie" directly under the crown is not as detailed as the same feature on my badge. The maker stamp is not just a light strike, it is totally different. Is this the fake or repro you are thinking of? Or is my badge the repro and this one an original? I don't know.

[Gary B]

This last one posted is a reproduction as well.

Gary B

[fsee]

This last one posted is a reproduction as well.

Gary B

It is currently on eBay (not mine).

[Brian L.]

Is this the fake or repro you are thinking of? Or is my badge the repro and this one an original? I don't know.

This one is a fake and yours is a fake.