Big Clasp with 11 Decorations

[Baltic]

Hi Gents,
check out this beauty.
Best
Trave Militaria

[Green]

Very nice medal bar.......

Do you might have a closeup from the fighting clasps?

[Baltic]

Hi Green,
no problem.
Best
Trave Militaria

[Green]

Very nice fighting clasps....thanks

[Don D.]

That would be quite easy to restore since the most common awards are the ones missing.

[kaiserwilhelm2]

I am not quite sure what to make of this bar.

The original owner seems to have been awarded the KC to Herzoglich Nassauischer Militär-und Zivilverdienstorden twice once with and once without crown. I would expect that on a medal bar this would mean that this KC would be displayed only once and then with the crown. But even if both KCs would have been worn on the medal bar, I would assume these would be grouped together with the one with the crown preceding the one without crown. Also I would assume both would be presented with the obverse side and not one with the obverse and the other with the reverse side.

Furthermore the time period covered by this bar is quite long. The KC of Herzoglich Nassauischer Militär-und Zivilverdienstorden was only awarded between 1858 and 1866 as the Duchy of Nassau was incorporated into Prussia in 1866. At the same time there is a Prussian Verdienstkreuz Kriegshilfsdienst 1916 which was awarded at least 50 years later.

Based on the medals I assume the original owner was a reserve officer from Nassau (the presence of a Landwehr service medal but no officer service medal, the two Nassau KCs without swords, the RAO 4th class and the missing KO most likely 4th class as well (these were awarded to gentlemen/officers only)) who served in the 1870/71 war and was possibly a doctor or medical specialist (based on the missing red cross medal, the Verdienstkreuz and the absence of any combat awards) or some sort of military official. However there is also the presence of the Erinnerungsmedaille 1909 in Bronze (the last medal on the bar) which was awarded in 1909 to former NCO's of the Nassau military but if the original owner was a former professional soldier of NCO status why does he have two KCs without swords (KCs were not awarded to NCOs (and certainly not twice in a short time span of only eight years) and besides these KCs were awarded to military personnel with swords not without) and if he was a professional soldier in Nassau why is he missing the Nassau commemorative medal for the campaign of 1866?

I am curious what others might make of this bar and the combination of awards on it.

[kaiserwilhelm2]

Looking at the bar again - I am also puzzled by the size differences between the (what I assumed were) two Nassau KCs. The first one is of similar size to Kriegsverdienstkreuz placed next to it. So that would make it 41,5-42 mm. However the Nassau KC should be 29,0-31,0 mm which is about the size of the second Nassau KC on the medals bar. What to make of this? Also the attachment point of the first 'KC' is different from what is depicted in the literature and looks like what was used on the Komtur grade of this order.

Also I can not find a mention of a KC awarded with crown in the literature I have available.

Is the first 'KC' on the bar perhaps a Komturkreuz with the crown removed and wrongly placed on the 'second' KC? I think this is the case. Which would also explain why 'the first KC' has eight leaves on it (Komturkreuz) while a KC should have only six. Plus a Komturkreuz without its crown measures about 42 mm which seems to correspond to the size of the first award displayed.

If so more questions. What is a Komturkreuz doing on a medal bar? Why is its crown placed on the KC grade?

[kaiserwilhelm2]

Need to make one correction. What I wrote about the 1909 medal is correct for the bronze version but the one on the medal bar is silver. A silver medal was awarded to former Nassau officers (but also for big spenders on the monument for which the medal was struck (the occasion being the unveiling of a monument to Duke Adolph von Nassau)) which makes sense as it corresponds in rank to the other awards on the medal bar. Sorry about that slip up.

If someone has a rank list/court list for Nassau I believe we should be able to find out to whom this medal bar belonged - there will not be many Nassau Komturkreuz awardees which were in the 1870/71 war and were still alive in at least 1916 and got this 1909 medal in silver (of which I guess were only 50-100 struck) - assuming the extraordinary character of this medal bar is genuine.

[kaiserwilhelm2]

Just did a bit more reading on the subject of the Nassausische Militaer- und Civil-Verdienstorden. In 1890 Duke Adolph became Grand Duke and sovereign of Luxembourg and started awarding the NMCV again, this time there was also the new grades of KC with crown and a Kommandeurkreuz without crown. So perhaps there was no switch of the crown between the Komturkreuz and the KC as I thought and stated below but that these awards are actually from a later date than 1858-1866 and were awarded from 1890 onwards by the Duke now also sovereign of Luxembourg.

[Wild Card]

I’m sorry, but the ribbons for the two Nassau KC’s are not correct. The yellow side stripes are too wide, almost x2. Also, assuming that the first one, the one on the far left, is supposed to represent aa military award, should it not have swords?

I should mention that I would provide a picture of a KC with swords and a correct ribbon, but for some reason cannot post attachments.

[kaiserwilhelm2]

the ribbons for the two Nassau KC’s are not correct. The yellow side stripes are too wide, almost x2

Yes that seems to be the case (see pic below of Nassau ribbon as awarded 1858-1866). However the ribbon for the award after 1890 may have been somewhat different and may correspond to that on the medal bar - unfortunately I do not have a good pic of the Luxembourg variant).

Although my information may be incomplete, I was unable to find anyone in the 1858-1866 period who received both a Komturkreuz and a KC of the Nassau order in question. So if the bar is in its original configuration, the first award at least should be one awarded from 1890 onwards by the Duke as sovereign of Luxembourg. I also think as there was no KC with crown prior to 1890, the second Nassau award (the KC with crown) was also awarded at the earliest in 1890.

So what does this tell us about the recipient?

I believe the following to be the most logical (once again assuming the medal bar is genuine). The recipient did not serve in the Nassau armed forces but probably was from the Nassau area (all Nassau awards seem to be from 1890 or later). The recipient served in the Prussian armed forces during the 1870/71 war either in V or XI Korps (based on the combat clasps). XI Korps contained both IR 87 and 88 (both units recruited in the Nassau area). So the recipient probably served in one of these infantry regiments and from the lack of military awards apparently without distinction. As for his rank during the war that remains unclear. He may have served as a reserve officer but also as an EM. After the war he may have continued a military career but based on the medals I believe a civilian career in state service to have been more likely and did moderately well receiving both a KO 4th class and a RAO 4th class. During his civilian life he dutifully did his time in the reserves. Somehow he was caught up in the project for the raising of money for and building of the monument for (Grand)Duke Adolph and for his work/donations he received that silver medal (placed last on the bar). During WWI he was not in military service but probably did something useful on the home front which was recognised by the awarding of the Kriegsverdienstkreuz and possibly also the red cross medal. All of this fits nicely into the profile of for example someone who was a mayor of a town in the Nassau area. He also apparently did something for the Grand Duke of Luxembourg for which he was awarded first the KC with Crown and later what is probably a Kommandeurkreuz (although it may be a different grade as I do not have any literature on awards from Luxembourg) sometime from 1890s onwards. The configuration of the medal bar was modified post 1912 when the LW reserve medal was added. The recipient probably died before the Hindenburg medal was introduced in 1934 (which makes sense as he was probably born around 1850). But finally let me stress all of this is just an (educated) guess.

[streptile]

...but for some reason cannot post attachments.

Hi Wild Card,

Your Association Membership needs renewal.

[WaltherW]

....whats about the pinned RAO , gents ?

Thinks this needs a closer look .too :-)

Regards

Walther

[Baltic]

Thanks for the good research information.
Our Clasp specialist put it like this:

Die Auszeichnungen im Einzelnen:
1. Großherzogtum Luxemburg, Militär- und Zivildienst-Orden Adolphs von Nassau (nach 1909), Ritter 1. Klasse ohne Krone
2. Königreich Preußen, Verdienstkreuz für Kriegshilfe, OEK 1966
3. Königreich Preußen, Roter Adler Orden Kreuz 4.Klasse, OEK 1704, die Auszeichnung wurde wohl durch eine Kopie oder Spangenstück ersetzt
4. Königreich Preußen, Königlicher Kronen-Orden Kreuz 4.Klasse, OEK 1762, Auszeichnung fehlt
5. Königreich Preußen, Rote Kreuz Medaille 3.Klasse 1898 in Bronze, OEK 1872, Auszeichnung fehlt
6. Königreich Preußen, Kriegsdenkmünze für Kämpfer 1870/1871, OEK 1941/1 mit vier Gefechtsspangen
7. Königreich Preußen, Kaiser Wilhelm I. Erinnerungsmedaille 1897, OEK 1965/1, Auszeichnung fehlt
8. Königreich Preußen, Landwehr Dienstauszeichnung 2.Klasse 1913, OEK 1979
9. Großherzogtum Hessen(-Darmstadt), Verdienstorden Philipps des Großmütigen – Silbernes Kreuz, OEK 836
10. Großherzogtum Luxemburg, Militär- und Zivildienst-Orden Adolphs von Nassau (nach 1909), Ritter 2. Klasse mit Krone, Zeige 1727 (Silber vergoldet)
11. Großherzogtum Luxemburg, Erinnerungsmedaille 1909 in Silber, OEK 1481

[Wild Card]

Hi Wild Card,

Your Association Membership needs renewal.

Thank you Streptile, must have missed my renewal notification.