I believe this last posted piece has been around for a while. Anytime I see an EK engraved to a PLM recipient, especially a well known fighter pilot I am hesitant to buy/believe it.
Gary B
Gary B
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ANA LM #1201868, OMSA LM #60, OVMS LM #8348 -
Totally agree! It's impossible to not be hesitant, regardless of how good something like this looks.Originally posted by Gary B View PostComment
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Here is a great cross with no patina at all. My sense here is that it is an original cross that was cleaned over the years - there is no patina on the back or in the engraving. While this one was cleaned and there does not seem to be a discrepancy between the cross's wear and that of the actual engraving, it shows that variations in wear should be expected. There are no rules.
Storage is certainly a factor in how pieces have worn over the years. I'd be willing to bet that a significant percentage of the engraved crosses we see were done in the 20s, 30s and 40s. There was still a pride in having or wearing an EK1 in the mid-war years that did not exist after WWII - there was no shame in serving the Kaiser to the level that there was shame in serving Hitler (not to mention that WWII EKs bore a swastika). So, a guy could have a 1916 awarded EK, for example, and he could wear it or display it for years after. In 1940, with Germany ascendant and feeling good about the victory in France, he (or a family member) takes it to a jeweler to have it professionally engraved to commemorate his actions in the Great War. He returns home and puts it a way for safe keeping; its stored in a way that protects the engraving differently than the patina had formed from 1916 through 1940. Obviously this is one scenario, but it's food for thought on engravings and variations in wear.
Interestingly, the cross below was awarded for the July 1917 fighting against the Russians at Krevo. 2nd Landwehr Regiment was recognized in particular for their roll in the fighting and was given an honorary title by the Kaiser. This recipient may very well have been a part of this regiment. And, while it specifically includes the date of the award, I'd guess this is the day he was awarded the EK, and not the day he "earned" it. As with engravings themselves, there are no hard and fast rules as to how the contents were recorded on the cross or what date was used. I'm of the opinion that the date the cross was earned is just as prevalent as the date the cross was awarded on these engravings. And, I think the fact that some crosses have just the month is sometimes a sign that the cross was earned/awarded over one span and that is the "date" that is recorded. Additionally, a month as opposed to a specific date could be representative of multiple actions, because not every award of the EK1 was the result of one action. There are always various, reasonable scenarios to consider when negotiating the minefield that is engraved crosses.Comment
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Hello,
at the Gunzenhausen show, on nov. 2nd, I've had the interesting opportunity to personally examine the EK-I that started this discussion.
Again, a further proof of how dangerous it is, to judge something after pictures only.
The cross appeared as neatly engraved and the inner of the inscription was showing a natural, dark-ivory patina, consistent with the overall ageing of the rear surface of the decoration.
the angle of the engraving's inner surface, reflected the light in a way that in the pictures it appeared as being brighter than its true shade.
Not being EKs engraved on the occasion of the award, it can also be that the naming could have been done on already present, thin scratches. Those present on the discussed cross -while examining it directly, with the aid of a good loupe and a hand-microscope- quite clearly appear as happened after the engraving.
So, discussing a piece in web-based places can always be instructive, especially when we share knowledge and "discoveries" in the various fields of phaleristic, but quite often, besides crystal-clear cases, as said, judging a piece looking at pictures on a computer screen only, could often become a target-shooting that could ruin an even undisputable original piece.
Best wishes,
E.L.Comment
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Good news... it's a lovely EK1Comment
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Sir, I have read all of this thread... and those pictures do leave a lot of questions. If you have had the thing in your hand and scanned it under a scope, which is the only way to answer if the graving was done before or after the scratches... then I will have to take your word for it. I have returned a few items I bought in the net for the very reasons this thread has brought up. Some people seem to like to get a bit more for the item they are selling. Item might be good, but doctoring it up to increase the value is not.Originally posted by Elmar Lang View Post
I would have to have it in my hand myself to say better, but being an engraver myself... well... the graving was done after the fact of it's main period of use... at least from what the pictures tell. If there are a few scratches that were made after the graving... only a stereo scope will be able to help most of us with less than perfect eyesight see that. Maybe the thing is ok... but I'm reserved on judgment on it. Scratches that happened after the engraving will be seen as pushing metal down into the letter and not running straight over the letter edge. You need a stereo scope to see that.
The font "might " be an older one but surely isn't what the average engraver would use of such an item during that period. Block letters have existed since before the Romans... possible... but not commonly used as using script instead is a lot quicker and a lot less effort to engrave. The guide lines are not a point as everyone has to use some sort of guide to grave. Graving without a form of guide is almost impossible. The graving was, as said, done by hand and appears not to be done by a modern power assisted engraving setup too, but those are expensive and just because I own one doesn't mean every engraver does.
All in all... I will reserve my judgment on this thing as I don't have it in the hand, but I do think the points having been brought up here in this are valuable because it has caused everyone to think about these sorts of things before they buy. Just because it has a date on it... doesn't mean it is what it appears to be.
One last thing. Concerning having things engraved after the fact/presentation. This is a definite possibility... I know... I engraved all my personally earned metals some thirty years after receiving them. Why? Because I wanted to have it concretely noted as to whom they were awarded to. No guessing... no grand kids that clean out the old farts' drawer and can't put a connection between my award and me. If they are going to toss them out or ask a buck for them in eBay... then at least they will know what they are doing.
So it must have happened a lot of times... years after the fact...Maybe as said much later...for the same reasons I engraved my medals.
Maybe this item is happily one of those. That I can go for.Comment
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Originally posted by triggerguard View Post
Thanks for the input - interesting contribution.Comment
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Realistically, there are hundreds of people, maybe thousands, who can still engrave by hand.
Unless you know the exact origin there is absolutely no way of knowing for sure when something was engraved.
Patina does not help, not at all, less than zero.
Style of engraving does not help. Any style that was done by hand in 1918 could be done by hand today by the right guy.
Anyone who can do it can turn a USD150 cross into a USD250 cross while watching a Magnum P.I. rerun.... easy money.
Engraved crosses be like religion... its fun as long as you believe... once you have doubts you tend to lose interest.Comment
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As if these guys could not turn USD150 into USD250 in less than 20 minutes....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PkOFCDLpfk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpEnRKk6VIg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwMhEOx8Zj8
The art is not dead!Comment
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Chris,
I know the art is not dead... I work at the stuff when I can find the time too. But there is always a chance this thing was engraved, as mentioned by one of the fellows above, in the thirties or forties. That would not change what it is... only the time-span it got engraved in. And I still reserve my opinion until such time as the item sits in my hand and I can scope it. Until then... we will say only that it leaves for me questions... and not any firm answers. It might be a real treasure and as mentioned, over the internet we just can't be the judge of that. I leave the situation open.Comment
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Agree 100%... but as I said, it is like religion... if a Guy believes it, he buys it, if he does not, he leaves it.Originally posted by triggerguard View Post
It would be a case to case thing, once you have a piece in your hand you can decide, but as it is subjective, you may find it great, and your best collecting buddy says "Naaaahhhh....."Comment
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We will all see a lot of that in any forum. Some of it will be.... and some will not be... justified. I personally hope for the owner that the Naaaahhhhs are not justified but I for myself will still not take a side on this. As said, everyone has to decide for themselves and I leave it open until proven and hope we are all able to do the same.Originally posted by Chris Boonzaier View PostComment
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I don't believe a craftsman uses the help (horizontal) lines, as a kid in kindergarten uses to aid in their first writing. It is a fake.Comment
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I have seen feint lines on a number of engraved items (non militaria), I assume every craftsman makes very very feint lines that are usually polished off afterwardsOriginally posted by morel5000 View PostComment
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