EK1 1813 opinions

[Brian S]

Absolutely Laurie. This is just another unprovenanced 'piece'. Now how old is an EKI 1813 winner in 1870? Those weren't just given to any soldier, higher officer grades. So he's a minimum 30 in 1813 born in 1785... Now he's over 75 and purchasing a replacement EKI? I'm not even familiar with 1870 screwbacks from 1870. Maybe 1870 screwbacks later but when? This whole piece just screams 1914 rework to me.

[Brian S]

Is this the outline of a crown that's been ground out?

[Brian S]

...which I wouldn't be too suspicious of unless the middle also looked like it's been worked

[Brian S]

...and with that I'm confidant I see the outline of a '1' and a '9'.

A faker who lives in a large home in Florida once told me, "it doesn't matter if it's real or a fake. What matters is what YOU believe it to be." So by all means, buy this and believe.

[Tom Y]

Absolutely Laurie. This is just another unprovenanced 'piece'. Now how old is an EKI 1813 winner in 1870? Those weren't just given to any soldier, higher officer grades. So he's a minimum 30 in 1813 born in 1785... Now he's over 75 and purchasing a replacement EKI? I'm not even familiar with 1870 screwbacks from 1870. Maybe 1870 screwbacks later but when? This whole piece just screams 1914 rework to me.

The EK was "....as Friedrich Wilhelm III empasises in the (institution) document to be a truly democratic award issued without distinction of rank, class, or privelege - this applied to both the 2nd and 1st Class crosses."
Bowen, The Prussian and German Iron Cross
So in theory a 13 year old drummer boy could have been awarded a 1st Class. He'd still be a little long in the tooth by 1870, though.

[Brian S]

And what a monarch won't say to convince young men to march to glory... I have no doubt a little drummer boy earned an EKI. I have however no doubt very few of the total were awarded below the rank of Major. I have never seen these statistics and would not take guesses based on a few regiment histories as overall facts. But having now read a few 1870 regiment lists, it looks very 'rank based' to me... Not that an occasional high visibility 'drummer boy' presentation wasn't good press.

...and I do have Stephan's numbers which I do not know the source of but he says 161 to NCO/Enlisted. How many of these senior NCO? Most I'd guess...

[Doug See]

...and with that I'm confidant I see the outline of a '1' and a '9'.

A faker who lives in a large home in Florida once told me, "it doesn't matter if it's real or a fake. What matters is what YOU believe it to be." So by all means, buy this and believe.

Wait.....no.....yes.......I see Elvis!

Seriously, a good study, Brian. Too bad we don't have access to the original piece, or at least original photos. I see what might be a 9, but not where it's supposed to be if it were a 1914. I hope the seller is offerring a good guarantee. It would be interesting to study the piece in hand, but I don't think I'll risk it right now.

[Doug See]

The EK was "....as Friedrich Wilhelm III empasises in the (institution) document to be a truly democratic award issued without distinction of rank, class, or privelege - this applied to both the 2nd and 1st Class crosses."
Bowen, The Prussian and German Iron Cross
So in theory a 13 year old drummer boy could have been awarded a 1st Class. He'd still be a little long in the tooth by 1870, though.

Don't forget the ones made for collectors, even back then. There were still 1870 EK's in 1930's era catalogues.

[Brian S]

...I didn't want to say that but since YOU brought it up, OK........

[Doug See]

...I didn't want to say that but since YOU brought it up, OK........

I KNEW it!! This EK was excavated in the back yard of Graceland by the same guys who have been digging up all those rare 1813 laser cut EK's marked "size 6 7/8" over in Kurland.

[Brian S]

Look at the case. It's been broken into to get to the insides. Why? It's old, no problem so why force your way into it? Turn an old case for a piece of jewelry into a screwback case?

[Biro]

How 'bout this one then lads....? 'Blucher' style...

I like the beading, I like the look of the core, and I like the honest age.

Any thoughts from them more learned?

[Doug See]

How 'bout this one then lads....? 'Blucher' style...

I like the beading, I like the look of the core, and I like the honest age.

Any thoughts from them more learned?

Okay then, I have one question. What is the provenance and how is it supported?

[Brian S]

The beauty of 1813 crosses is they were by later standards crudely made. Now doesn't that just open the door to anyone's garage made cross.

Sorry I'm not as learned as you'd like but I am now sure I called this for what it is...

[Brian S]

Now you can see the repaint over the scrape off from this better photo.

Biro you don't want to hear this...