Lubeck Cross

[Jesse]

Closer view of reverse of discussed cross and second piece.

[Jesse]

Some bars.

[Jesse]

I examined each under a high magnification loupe and surprisingly all displayed red enamel on the claws and beaks, including the cross under discussion and the other black claw/beak single, top row far left. The red enamel is very clear. I have stupidly never examined them under magnification previously as they looked so obviously black. If you have one, please check it and post the results.

I have two other bars and singles I cannot get to right now but I will check them ASAP. it's too early to pose the question, are black claw/beaks really black? But for me it's certainly a possibility.

[Brian L.]

Brian, I would sure love to see a better image of that page, even the whole catalogue, I over cooked my bacon and eggs when I saw it, I was that surprised.

Sorry about your breakfast. I'm afraid that's the quality of the catalogue. I scanned the pages at high resolution. But, it was a cheaply produced catalogue.

I just posted it to show that most of the WWI merit crosses and medals were still available from suppliers well into the 1960s. The catalogue came with a separate price sheet, which I unfortunately never had. So, I don't know what they sold for back then.

Here's what the whole page actually showed, to give you an idea.

[Jesse]

Thanks Brian, I was hoping for more but that catalogue in itself gives a lot of food for thought. Never saw it before.

[jimmy72]

Great info ! Yes , thank you for posting the catalogue which unfortunately doesn't show us a perfect colour photo of the Lubeck but it couldn't be that easy and never is !! Lol ! Very interesting that under magnification Jesse is seeing a red enamel on claw and beak . Micro inspection would be my next step but unfortunately I don't have a black claw to look at. However , I will try to get some time to examine my red claw today and post pics if anything significant shows up.

[speedytop]

Hi,

the cross in the first pictures (Post 1 and 5) is an original and we can see there dark red claws.

The picture from the second Sedlatzek "Ordensheft" (1958) is very bad, but the same original picture from the book "Der deutsche Soldatenkalender 1953" (1952) and from the first Sedlatzek "Ordensheft" (1956) show, that the claws are red.
The picture is from Dr. Klietmann.

Uwe

[Jesse]

Thank you Uwe. Are you aware about any discussions around the supposed black or red beak/claw variants, if they are variants, on German websites?

@Brian, I know from previous posts you know about glass enamelling, are you aware of darkening or degradation of the enamel on any other Imperial awards?

I wish I could post clear images, but the black feet and beaks are 100% red enamel when viewed under magnification, something I never noticed before and I have owned a few dozen of both "types".

[Brian L.]

Glass enamel doesn't really age. Although it can discolor if it is exposed to heat and extreme sunlight. Likely the slightly darker red (it's actually more opaque, rather than darker) on the original cross is just that the manufacturer used a different batch of red powder or the enameler was hung over and got the mixture wrong, or the kiln temperature was a little too hot. It's hard to tell.

[jimmy72]

So , perhaps the idea of the so called black claw / beak is just a collector myth with no real basis in fact ? A darker blend of enamel that , when applied to such a small and shallow area, gave the appearance of being black ? Interesting to hear what others reveal on their black claw versions.

[Jesse]

So , perhaps the idea of the so called black claw / beak is just a collector myth with no real basis in fact ? A darker blend of enamel that , when applied to such a small and shallow area, gave the appearance of being black ? Interesting to hear what others reveal on their black claw versions.

I think it's entirely possible. Especially after reading this. I wish I had seen it when originally posted.
http://wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/s....php?p=2208436

The thing is, every one I ever had or saw looked so very black I at least never felt the need to examine them under magnification. I certainly think there is a good chance that the black looking ones are really red and that either at manufacture or at some other point they have darkened, or appeared to darken perhaps due to the reasons Brian mentioned.