Lubeck Cross

[Jesse]

Gent's, please give opinions on this cross I have in e stand. Black claws and beaks.

[Jesse]

Reverse

[Jesse]

Difficult for me to get the light right, either too much reflection or too little light.

[Don D.]

Jesse, thanks for posting this. As far as I know the black beak and claws indicate post WW2 manufacture. At least that was the last thing I had heard about them. Anyone heard or seen anything different?

[Brian L.]

I've color and exposure corrected the shots a little for you.

[jimmy72]

Just curious as to where the black vs red theory originated . I own a red beak / claw example but , looking at examples of both online , they look very comparable. Thank you !

[Jesse]

Don, I own several of each, I have have always believed black claws and beaks to be post WW1, second pieces, but before WW2. I am sure I initially learned that here some years ago, I will try and find the posts.
Jimmy72, my examples of both are almost identical, same weight, only the enamel is slightly darker on the black claws.

Brian, thank you, got a new phone /camera and its driving me nuts trying to work it out.

[RonR]

Red claws and beaks on a Medal Bar.....

......

[jimmy72]

Don, I own several of each, I have have always believed black claws and beaks to be post WW1, second pieces, but before WW2. I am sure I initially learned that here some years ago, I will try and find the posts.
Jimmy72, my examples of both are almost identical, same weight, only the enamel is slightly darker on the black claws .

Cheers Jesse , very close match indeed . Yeah , just wondering where the red - black rule came from ? Anybody aware of a period source differentiating between the two styles ? I might have to buy one just to compare the two . Thanks for sharing , Ron . Happen to have a black claw version you could share ? Thanks !

[Dansson]

This has become an interesting thread.

[Don D.]

Cheers Jesse , very close match indeed . Yeah , just wondering where the red - black rule came from ? Anybody aware of a period source differentiating between the two styles ? I might have to buy one just to compare the two . Thanks for sharing , Ron . Happen to have a black claw version you could share ? Thanks !

That is a good question. The old time collectors believed it was that way. I guess by keeping everything black that would have simplified production.

[Scott Powell]

I could swear I remember Rick stating on the GMIC many years ago Black Beaks/Claws were post War. Both of my Lubeck bars have Red Claws an Beaks

[jimmy72]

I could swear I remember Rick stating on the GMIC many years ago Black Beaks/Claws were post War. Both of my Lubeck bars have Red Claws an Beaks

Thanks Scott ! Some interesting threads on the Lubeck over there. Only found a quick reference to the black claw / beak that it was a later produced wearing piece .

[Brian L.]

Hanseatic Crosses for sale in the 1960 Friedrich Sedlatzek catalogue. The image is not clear enough to definitively support the all-black eagle on the Lubeck Cross only being post-1945. But, the image does show that all 3 crosses were for sale from orders and decorations suppliers after 1945 and well into the 1960s, which makes sense. There were many WWI vets still alive and presumably looking for replacement decorations. I think they should be considered legitimate, albeit later private purchase pieces, as they weren't produced for collectors or as copies to deceive anyone, like the so-called "Screaming Chicken" Lubeck Cross (shown below), which is obviously a fake.

[Jesse]

Brian, I would sure love to see a better image of that page, even the whole catalogue, I over cooked my bacon and eggs when I saw it, I was that surprised.
The thread has made me get to some of my Luebeck awards and check them. It has had one unexpected surprise, but I will leave it until later.
Some images, observe the cross furthest right is silver, a second piece. The cross under discussion is middle, lower row.