In the superb book, "Iron Time", there is a reference on page 222 to crude iron crosses being dropped over German lines in WWI. The crosses have a "W" and a Christian cross (the sort one might see on a grave stone) in the centre and the names of Belgian and French towns, where the German were accused of committing atrocities, round the edge. Does anyone have any information about this - where, when, how etc.. Also are there any book references to this event.
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an excellent question:
I read the same passage and was also intrigued. Were these dropped as a propaganda tool only, or as a weapon? ;-)
Relatedly, what is the story on "hate belts" where French or English, etc. mutilated iron crosses (and other decorations) and attached the iron cores to belts?
I would also like to hear some more about these things.-Ralph Abercrombie -
Mock Crosses
Back in July there was one being sold on eScam, I was scared off when it went past $75.00... I don't remember what the final was.
DavidComment
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Hate belts
were a fad that transcended the trenches. One can find them from both sides. The idea was that one would obtain an insignia from a foe that one has personally killed in battle and would then attach it to a leather belt as a symbol of one's prowess and fearsomeness. Quite primordial, no?
Well, this practice quickly degenerated into a 'tough guy' competition. An affectation for use behind the lines.
The practice of making 'hate belts' became a quite fascinating pastime for many troops. Some were incredibly ornate-with badges that would command top dollar these days. Others were primitive and consisted merely of buttons and other small metal insignia from the uniforms of the fallen.
An interesting sidenote is that many of the currently seen hate belts were actually made after the war by local villagers in order to sell as souveniers. They would scavenge the battlefields and make all kinds if artifacts in order to support their subsitant level of existance.
I must say that they look great, but when you 'see' an authentic one it can send shivers down your spine! Just like looking at an American Indian weapon with a passel of scalps attached to it.
Whoever created it was indeed a fearsome individual.Comment
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Ultimate trophy ?
In one of Bowman's 'The Pickelhaube' there's a photo of a British infantryman walking down a road with half a dozen comrades. On the front of his steel hemet is a Prussian eagle helmet plate ! Probably held on loosely with a rubber band or suchlike, couldn't have been a permanent attachment ?Comment
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Since I seem to have sidetracked "Doc's" thread, I'll offer this:
In the mid-70's in the back of comic books you used to be able, for a couple dollars, to order a handful of things called (I believe - maybe spelled this wrong) "flechettes". The hype said these small wedge-shaped pieces of steel, with crude stabilizing fins attached, were "dropped from planes by the Allies in WW2 by the 1000's over German military installations" and that "these would penetrate, among other things, engine blocks if dropped from a high enough altitude". I remember pictures of some of these things had bent and twisted fins as if they had actually been used.
These were NOT the things that looked like "jacks" in the kid's games that were periodically dropped over airfields in that era; these "flechettes" by the nature of their shape were obviously intended to puncture steel plate, etc.
We all remember the story (perhaps apocryphal) of how the Germans flew over a certain airfield, dropped a bunch of the "jack-like" things (making the airstrip theoretically unusable as these things would puncture airplanes' tires), only to have the Brit's hook up a magnet to the front of a truck, gather up the items, load them onto a plane and drop them over a GERMAN airfield...
I seem to remember the passage in "The Iron Time" saying something about these being dropped over German trenches? Seems in that event that these would serve as a weapon as much as a propaganda tool!
Why not ask Steve? He is an association member of the forum and I am sure he would be glad to clarify if he can, and he would probably value any feedback you can give him on his book. Try a "PM" to him.
I have a mental picture of WW1 British flyers hovering over a German trench and flinging these things downward one at a time like one would throw a frisbee on edge, and saying "take that! - and that!" zip! zing! And some poor German catching one on the helmet with a mighty whang... ouch!-Ralph AbercrombieComment
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My theory is that these crude iron corsses were sold as souvenirs to raise war funds or in return for donations of scrap. I may be wrong, but I can't see wasting material, fuel, and manufacturing time on making humorous medals to drop over enemy lines.Comment
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It would not surprise me if these were dropped but I will keep an open mind until evidence is produced. Hence my query. Doug - I never thought of these as humorous. Perhaps their intention, if indeed a propaganda device, was to suggest that an army that awards itself honours for committing atrocities against civilians is base and heading for annihilation.Comment
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I somehow doubt they were dropped.
Can you imagine bits or shrapnel, debris of war, bodies, rusted helmets..... what is the chance of finding one of these crosses if they were ever dropped, it would be like the old "junk Mail" rule of thumb, less than 1% return on all the leaflets you send out. I would imagine 99% of the crosses would never have been found, and quite honestly, if I was a german and did find one, I would have pocketed it as a nice keepsake?
Added to that, the one pictured here are of the kind you find quite often in antique shops and in collections in South Africa, where they were sold in WW1 to raise funds.Comment
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Doug is absolutely correct.
They were given as tokens for donating funds to the war effort. A precursor to the 'tinnie' of the 3rd Reich, if you will.Comment
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Clunk
I accidently started a new thread in the general section on this but my comments were meant to go at the end of this thread. Woops......
I am happy to help with this question. On the bottom of page 222 in the Iron Time is an example of a "tinnie" type token used as a propaganda ploy and patriotic money-donation device as stated in an above thread. I was informed by a very learned Iron Cross collector when I photographed the upper two crosses on the same page that they were "revenge crosses", forged not only as a reminder of German
aggression in the twons mentioned on the arms of the cross, but also dropped by allied pilots on German troops as a mere pestering as were many different items dropped. I would assume these particular pieces were not dropped as they would
have sunk so deep into the mud. I was not told they were ground dug therefore I assume they were probably pocketed as souvenirs by allied troops. Note the cross in the middle, an indicator of their serious nature. Each cross is about 1/8 inch thick.
Hope this helps with some of the mystery.
StephenComment
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hello,
could some of you please post a foto of one.
thanks christianComment
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Christian,
The easiest thing to do is to get a copy of Stephen Previtera's book, The Iron Time, and look at page 222. I tried to scan my iron cross it but, being dark metal, all I managed to get was a sillhouette. RodComment
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thanks, i will look for oneComment
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This one is available on ebay and will be closing in about three hours. I have pasted the images below.
Propaganda cross or not, it is interesting that this one has an Austrian trifold ribbon.
Brian
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...175588015#BID1Comment
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