Junker made Pilot Badge

[ccj]

Hello,

Here's a Junker Pilot's Case non maker marked but with crescent moon and 800 mark. Also, what I feel to be a period case.

Opinions more than welcome...

[phild]

I think that it is a very nice badge and case from circa 1915/1916. IMO this type of construction and metal content was the original "award" badge. Other makes, construction styles and materials may have been introduced the last year or so of the war.....but this was the prescribed award piece IMO.

I do not know the reason as to why some of the Junckers are not maker marked while most certainly are, but there does seem to be a definite chronology and sequence as to when maker marks were placed in certain locations (center then lower above the hook) and also when the maker mark was dropped and then added again.

[ccj]

Thanks, it's a looker and I want to make sure nobody has issue.



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[Hagrid]

(...) but there does seem to be a definite chronology and sequence as to when maker marks were placed in certain locations (center then lower above the hook) and also when the maker mark was dropped and then added again.

...plus a damage of the punching tool resulting in a missing bar in the "E"...

I agree: A very nice Juncker badge.
Some say that boxes with purple cushioning are "not contemporary" (=> vulgo "fake"), but I don´t know whether thats true - on the picture the colour is not clearly distinguishable, anyway.
I like what I see...
Regards
Hagrid

[90th Light]

And then there are the examples where they crossed out or removed the "Juncker" name after it was stamped in, such as shown on this thread;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hlight=Juncker


Which no one can explain why ???

Chris

[phild]

And then there are the examples where they crossed out or removed the "Juncker" name after it was stamped in, such as shown on this thread;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hlight=Juncker


Which no one can explain why ???

Chris

Yes to everything that you said in both posts. It seems that the sequence was center maker mark and silver marks, center silver mark & moon only, Low silver mark and moon only, low full maker marks and silver marks, broken die "E".....later 1917 on into 1918.....I don't know for sure if Juncker made real silver badged right to the end of 1918 or not....

The defaced markings are a mystery to me some say retailer done, but I am far from convinced. They are legit and not common so I think it was done for some reason for a short period.

My feeling is that these badges (by Juncker) were made in batches or runs under contract.....meaning that maybe 500 or 1000 were pressed in later 1917 (for instance for the broken "E") and then assembled and marked over the next months for delivery. I do not think that they pressed and assembled these badges daily during the war....my opinion, I could be wrong.

The pilot, Observer, Air Gunner (1918) and maybe retired flyer (I don't study those as much) were all pressed from same basic die and marked with same die.


Just to throw this out........it conflicts with some of the recent books, I would submit that after 1914 that copper (brass, tombac whatever) and nickel( Alpaca, German "silver " and nickel-"silver" there was NO SILVER in this metal!) was more of a strategic material than actual SILVER! This is well seen with everthing made in post 1914-15 Germany. Award EKs of every class were made with real silver up until the end or near the end of the war. I have never seen an award EK WWI made with a Nickel based frame.

An award flight badge was a "big deal". I'm not saying that single un-back pressed types were never made during the war or even that they were not awarded, but I am say that they were not the normal award standard for at least most of the war. I also know for a fact that those type badge in plated Tombac or brass were made into the 1930s......for privat sale. I personally have never seen a 800 Juncker that I think was made post 1918.

[jaba-the-hunt]

Why should Juncker not produce in silver after the war.
The restrictions made during the war were not longer valid after the war.

I'm preaty sure that stamped un-back example were issued during the war. Why not. The price for a badge like this was lower that a silber hollow plated and money was an important factor when they don't have much.

I see several groups containing documents where stated that the badge could not be provided due to problems in aquisition or other problems. That means, it was a problem with awards that was issued numerous.
Same for the Ehrenbecher.

Kind regards
Alex

[Andy K.]

I have no doubts that pilot badge and case are not original and have not been produced before the end of WWI.

IMO the unmarked pilot badge is clearly made by Juncker Berlin. It has all the typical “Juncker” details. Also the case is a typical case for Juncker flight badges.

Andy

[phild]

Why should Juncker not produce in silver after the war.
The restrictions made during the war were not longer valid after the war.

I'm preaty sure that stamped un-back example were issued during the war. Why not. The price for a badge like this was lower that a silber hollow plated and money was an important factor when they don't have much.

I see several groups containing documents where stated that the badge could not be provided due to problems in aquisition or other problems. That means, it was a problem with awards that was issued numerous.
Same for the Ehrenbecher.

Kind regards
Alex

Actually the Ehrenbecher is a great example of how actual silver was available through most of the war for official awards and substituted circa 1918 (or late 1917) with a plated or coated steel (not brass or Nickel based Alpaca) when things did get tight.

There was no money to speak of in Germany or with the Germans during the 20s and 30s......for these kind of things nor IMO that much demand in Pilot badges as they were technically not authorized for uniform wear (no air service! so no pilots!) maybe retired badges.....so these were inexpensive and worn on suits or vet uniforms a few times a year for events.....hence few show true wear......unlike the silver Junckers which almost always show real wear and often repairs and bent pins.

The other issue is that offical awards were contracted by the Government and as such had strict specifications that had to be followed. The government could and did change the specs at times but it was NEVER the case that makers could supply whatever they felt like as long as it justy looked like the item being contracted.

In my experience it was often the case if not most even most often the case that private purchase awards were of inferior materials to official awards....although I do concede that usually varying qualities of Private awards were available .......for a price

[jaba-the-hunt]

The other issue is that offical awards were contracted by the Government and as such had strict specifications that had to be followed. The government could and did change the specs at times but it was NEVER the case that makers could supply whatever they felt like as long as it justy looked like the item being contracted.

This doesn't mean that hollow stamped awards are issued by or other makers delivered badges for the Government.

The specifications for the navy aviation badges mentioned SILVER as material for all badges but there were no silver badges been awarded ´from 1916 to EOW.

Kind regards
Alex

[ccj]

The case interior is a bluish purple. I have a question. Why would this color be considered reproduction when black or red would be the most common choice for a faker to pick?
I wouldn't pick blue or purple or yellow but something more safe and common like black. I'm no expert on this hence the question.

Also, Imperial Sky has no unmarked 2 piece 800 Junker examples and just briefly mentions possible Junker pilot badge without mm. Are there references that state Junker made unmarked badges and if so for what purpose?

[phild]

The cases are not my strong suit and I know excellent fakes of all classes and types of awards have been made of both Imperial and Third Reich for at least 40 years, but this one looks very good to me. As for the purple lining I don't know the story as to what could not have been used and all of that. I do know the purple was used extensively for wartime EKI cases for instance.


As for a certain book not showing non MM silver Juncker badges, I would just say that is why I suggested getting all of the books. I know that every reference regardless of how great it is or even the subject it addresses, is always in the end bounded by the writers own purview of what is correct and what is not or at least what is questionable.

The non maker marked but still silver marked examples are fairly uncommon. They seem to date from 1915/16 and can be found with both center stamps and the low stamp like yours. Add to these the examples with CE Juncker struck out and it is a bit of a mystery. My feeling is that they may have been for private sale and had the maker omitted to keep them superate from those to be delivered to the government who I suspected required them MM

This is just a guess on my part, but I do believe them wartime and earlier rather than late

[ccj]

Thank you for the reply. I agree on the cases... I think one of the purple in question may be a bright purple with Junker logo and it's purple in both lid and base.

The non mm Junker hollow in 800 silver does seem rare but one would think we would know by now why these weren't marked. I guesss these questions to veterans didn't come up much. I too would probably been more eager to ask questions about the war before a badge so...

The cases are not my strong suit and I know excellent fakes of all classes and types of awards have been made of both Imperial and Third Reich for at least 40 years, but this one looks very good to me. As for the purple lining I don't know the story as to what could not have been used and all of that. I do know the purple was used extensively for wartime EKI cases for instance.


As for a certain book not showing non MM silver Juncker badges, I would just say that is why I suggested getting all of the books. I know that every reference regardless of how great it is or even the subject it addresses, is always in the end bounded by the writers own purview of what is correct and what is not or at least what is questionable.

[phild]

I agree if more research and documentation on WWI era awards had been done involving surviving veterans even in the 1970s, we would have much more information to the puzzle now. I doubt if many or any of the original wearers of these awards paid any attention as to how or if they were marked, but we would have have been able to find out in many cases when and HOW they obtained the award they had, say bestowed or purchased or gifted.

It is interesting that 800 crescent moon (silver) marked Juncker badges with no MM and with struck MM can be found in both the Pilot and Observer types. I am not sure about former pilot type or not.

Several of the small number that I have seen in reference books and in person have engraved dedications on the back, seemingly as gifts. Some are in near un-worn condition and cased. None of that proves anything but is interesting to note. A number of MM badges are also engraved.....but a high % of these have just scratched names or just engraved owner names and the date.....not so much a gift from someone else.

I mentioned in earlier posts that I thought that these were fairly early. I am re-thinking that opinion now based on some others that I looked at with later dedication dates (1917) of course those engravings do not tell us when the badge was made, but I am beginning to think that non MM badges were made alongside the MM examples and NOT as an evolution in the way they were told to mark them.

If that is so, there would have been a reason, probably determined by who they were being purchased by (government or retailer) as to if they were MM marked or not.

[ccj]

I think this is the purple colored interior case that is considered to be reproduction. It's a bit brighter and all purple.
The one above it a period case similar to the EK as started in the thread.


https://www.derrittmeister.com/produ...s11/11-537.htm