The 1813 Club meeting 2016.

[Dansson]

Thanks, your full size is a stunner too & pics is super. Very creative lighting.

Thank you!

[Roglebk]

I was happy to have one exactly like it show up in Wernitz and Simon's new book, as well as one or two other references.

Need better pics because both are, very sorry to say, questionable.

Anybody who got that book care to comment? What books/website is the other "one or two references"?

[fsee]

Need better pics because both are, very sorry to say, questionable.

Anybody who got that book care to comment? What books/website is the other "one or two references"?

Everyone has their opinion. Let me be a little more specific than "questionable". We know that the 2nd Class was a put-together, as I stated. The ribbon is of a different era, the core was inserted at some time, who knows? The frame is an early frame. How early? Who can say for certain. It was obviously not made as a fake or copy. It is what it is and someone put a lot of care and craftsmanship in it.

The first class is shown, or one almost exactly like it is shown in Wernitz' book, in "The Prussian and German Iron Cross" by D.E. Bowen (an early and very rare book, 1987, 335 pages, one of the best researched and documented of it's time), in "Das Eiserne Kreuz von 1813 bis heute", by Harald Geisler, 1995 by Verlag Klaus D. Patzvall, and in Iron Time, Previtera. Of course no two early crosses are exactly alike, but you can tell by comparison that the workmanship and metal ageing are very, very similar.

[fsee]

2nd Class

Here are more photos. There are no "more references" because this one is a one of a kind. Many 1813 Iron Crosses suffered from broken cores due to the brittleness of the iron castings. I believe I stated in the original post that this one appears to be made from an early frame and the Landwehr cross used as a replacement for the core. A "Frankenstein" if you please.

[gregM]

----- oops, wrong thread ------

[fsee]

color

I am no good at close-up photography and I admire the professionals who do it for publishers. I am always amazed at how many photos of the same object will appear differently with different settings. It makes it very difficult to compare and judge from internet photos.

[Miro O]

Live and learn, they say. So can you please enlighten me and show us the identical cross (EK1) from the Wernitz book? I am sure Mr. Wernitz wouldn´t mind to have small promo on this forum.

[fsee]

Wernitz

Live and learn, they say. So can you please enlighten me and show us the identical cross (EK1) from the Wernitz book? I am sure Mr. Wernitz wouldn´t mind to have small promo on this forum.

Sure, everyone can learn something. I'll also try to copy the one in Bowen's book. Give a day or so.

[Miro O]

No problem, take your time. I would rather prefer Wernitz, though.

[fsee]

Wernitz

After giving it some thought, I am not going to reproduce the photos or text on a public forum. The Wernitz and Simons book sets are currently being sold on the internet. They have a USA web site where you can purchase them directly from the publisher and I believe someone posted the http on the WAF here.

The publishers are very specific in their warnings about reproducing any content or photos. Since the books are currently on sale, I do not want to risk a copyright infringement. The set is well worth the investment if you collect Iron Crosses.

I looked through four good reference books which all seem to agree that the 8 loop crosses were made in the second batch of 1813 EK1's which they began making in November 1813. The first batch made May to November usually had 4 thicker loops on the back, or the 3 loops soldered along the top arm to facilitate sewing to a tunic.

Greg M PM'ed me about bead counts on the frames of 1813 EK1's and I looked at photos of the 8 loop crosses in the reference books and tried to count the number of beads across the top and bottom arms--no easy task for my elderly eyes. All of them varied, cross to cross and even on the same cross the count was different on each of the arms. Most counts were over 30 and some reached 41. I think it is fair to state that every 1st Class 1813 made during the first round of manufacturing in 1813 was different, all being hand crafted. The 8 loop cross in my collection seems to have a bead count on the lower end, approximately 31 on the top arm and 36 on the bottom. I welcome any corrections, since I counted without a magnifier and seldom got the exact same count each time I tried. Try it, you older folks might find the same. My wife said something like "get a life" when she found out what I was doing....

[fsee]

No problem, take your time. I would rather prefer Wernitz, though.

I should clarify: The cross in Wernitz' book is not "the same identical cross", but is very, very similar.

[streptile]

My wife said something like "get a life" when she found out what I was doing....

Been there.

[Miro O]

After giving it some thought, I am not going to reproduce the photos or text on a public forum. The Wernitz and Simons book sets are currently being sold on the internet. They have a USA web site where you can purchase them directly from the publisher and I believe someone posted the http on the WAF here.

The publishers are very specific in their warnings about reproducing any content or photos. Since the books are currently on sale, I do not want to risk a copyright infringement.

Fair use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

[gregM]

Been there.

Yep, my wife just looks at me and shakes her head.
I tell here it could be worse, I could be hanging out in the bars.

[Willi Z.]

I am still in the club as well....