Prussian Kronen Orden 1.kl "50" - where's this?

[avensis2000]

Hi,

I was browsing old Klenau's auction catalogues and bumped into this one in -77 catalogue. I haven't ever seen this for sale before or after the auction, and it's not shown in Klingbeils book either.

Does anyone know if it has found it's way to any museum or is it in private collection?

Seems like it was sold with 14.500 DMarks.

[streptile]

That piece is a copy (fake).

I have not seen one sold of this exact setup, but I've seen a few similar ones sold over the years.

[avensis2000]

Yes, similar ones I have also seen and Klingbeil's book has nice pictures of them too - I just hadn't seen this exact setup before also. I had that "copy" thing in my mind too, but I still more thought it's a real deal anyway.

Why "we" think it's a copy?

[streptile]

It's part of a generation of good fakes that includes many different KO variations and other high Prussian orders.

I'm not sure how to explain exactly why it's fake except -- same as always -- to say that it doesn't match originals, and the quality is obviously lacking in-hand.

Here are a few originals of slightly different and earlier types from the DHM.

[streptile]

A bit more information.

There were two fakers at work on high-end Imperial German orders in the 1960s and 1970s. One was Klietmann, operating sometimes under the name Godet, and one was Ernst Blass.

Their fakes were extremely convincing for many years and to many collectors. Many of them continue to fool, such as Klietmann's "Dead Eye" PLM*

There are some investigations ongoing about precisely who made what, where, and when, but for the moment these questions remain largely unanswered.

This KO was made by (or for) one of these two guys -- probably Blass, since Graf Klenau's auction house was owned by him (although after this auction date, from my information), and became the primary avenue for bringing his fakes to market.






* Regardless of whether a PLM was made with this design before 1945, it is certain that others were made after the war.

[Brian L.]

The difference between Blass and Klietmann was that Klietmann had all the original Godet dies which he used to produce post-war copies. I'm pretty sure he didn't make any new dies. I had a lot of correspondence with him in the 70s and 80s and he was a great source of historic information. I don't think he set out to deceive in the beginning. But, his pieces got into the collector market and were sold on by many dealers as original, which eventually came back on him.

Blass, on the other hand was an out and out crook. He had a team of Orden u. Abzeichen industry-trained jewelers operating in Hungary who produced new dies for his high-end fakes.

I had a brush with Blass in 1978 because of a major legal dispute between him and a Canadian dealer, Ed Denby, with whom I was very close. Denby attempted to return to Blass a Knights Cross with oakleaves, swords and diamonds and a Combined Pilots/Observers badge in Platinum with diamonds that Blass had sold in one of Denby's auctions a few years earlier. Both pieces were subsequently declared fake by several well-known dealers and collectors. The buyer returned them and received a refund. Blass refused to refund his commission and Denby sued him.

Blass was always in litigation over some shady deal or other. Yet, even after his reputation was in the mud, collectors continued to turn a blind eye and buy from him.

30-40 years on, a lot of his stuff is out in the market having been repeatedly passed on as genuine. The only good thing (if any) is that he only produced high-end pieces and exotica. So, with the exception of some everday collectors who more than likely have one of his ordinary KCs in their collections, the owners of his junk are a small group of very well-heeled collectors.

[streptile]

Hi Brian,

Thank you for that very good additional information

The difference between Blass and Klietmann was that Klietmann had all the original Godet dies which he used to produce post-war copies. I'm pretty sure he didn't make any new dies.

That's right: Klietmann had the original Gebrüder Godet dies for a few items that I know of. These dies were from the 1930s. I am near 100% sure that he did not have any of the older J. Godet dies from the war. But he did make some awards that are at the very least not confirmed to have been made by Gebrüder Godet in the 1930s, such as the Dead Eye PLM. So either Gebrüder Godet did in fact make a few in the 1930s (which I believe is very possible) and Klietmann inherited the dies, or he had new dies made. This last question at least is unclear to me.

Blass, on the other hand was an out and out crook. He had a team of Orden u. Abzeichen industry-trained jewelers operating in Hungary who produced new dies for his high-end fakes.

As I understand it, his earliest pieces were made in Southeast Asia, probably Thailand. When these sources dried up he moved the operations to Hungary, whence the so-called "Spanish Fake" PLM comes, as well as this piece under discussion here.

In the early 1980s Blass bought Graf Klenau Auktionshaus and moved hundreds of his fakes through it to the the well-healed collectors you mentioned.

[Zepenthusiast]

Hi Trevor,

Their fakes were extremely convincing for many years and to many collectors. Many of them continue to fool, such as Klietmann's "Dead Eye" PLM*

But he did make some awards that are at the very least not confirmed to have been made by Gebrüder Godet in the 1930s, such as the Dead Eye PLM.

While recognizing it's your theory/belief and under your--and perhaps others--active investigation, this is phrased in a definitive way that suggests a statement of fact. If I'm not mistaken, it hasn't yet been firmly established that Herr Klietmann ever made any "Dead Eye" PLMs?

And while this qualification is there (appreciated ):

* Regardless of whether a PLM was made with this design before 1945, it is certain that others were made after the war.

The only type certain to have been made after the war were the "Cejalvo" attributed versions, which have not been connected to Kleitmann to my knowledge.

Suspiciously marked versions are floating about, as you have illustrated, but potentially spurious markings--which could be later additions as commonly encountered on Rothe PlMs, for instance--would not seem to offer "certainty" either. You've correctly cautioned me about how things get read and then repeated as "facts," so just seeking fair balance!

I'm as open as anyone to know the truth if you've found the solid evidence, but otherwise it seems only right to qualify such a statement along the lines of "such as the "Dead Eye PLM", which I believe to have been Klietmann's work."

Jim

[streptile]

...otherwise it seems only right to qualify such a statement along the lines of "such as the "Dead Eye PLM", which I believe to have been Klietmann's work."

Sorry, Jim, I won't revise my statement.

I've seen enough evidence to prove that Klietmann made the Dead Eye PLM after WWII, most of which I've shared with you. True, I haven't shared this information in public. But I feel comfortable making the statement without qualification.

Incidentally, that same evidence also contains -- for the first time ever! -- a tantalizing hint that some Dead Eyes could predate 1945 but, alas, you dismissed what ought to have been cause for celebration for you because it does not fit in your fanciful theory that the Dead Eye is a WWI-era award piece.

Merry Christmas

[Leroy]

Do any of you gentlemen happen to have catalog photos or illustrations of the Knights Crosses/Oakleaves, Swords and Brilliants you have indicated were made by Klietmann and/or Blass? I would love to see them, as I'm sure would others.

[Montgomery Burns]

Sorry, Jim, I won't revise my statement.

I've seen enough evidence to prove that Klietmann made the Dead Eye PLM after WWII, most of which I've shared with you. True, I haven't shared this information in public. But I feel comfortable making the statement without qualification.

Incidentally, that same evidence also contains -- for the first time ever! -- a tantalizing hint that some Dead Eyes could predate 1945 but, alas, you dismissed what ought to have been cause for celebration for you because it does not fit in your fanciful theory that the Dead Eye is a WWI-era award piece.

Merry Christmas

I would be interested in you're investigations ,,,,how about a nice thread summing up the evidence, hints , of all KLietmann producing and ware abouts

besides the public interest of this community it would perhaps provide some help in consolidating the evidence ...hints and so on as other member come in to help with they're views or finds .

lets see it ,,,,


K

[avensis2000]

Thanks guys - this transformed to very interesting topic in my opinion and lot of new info/theories has come up which I haven't known/heard before. It has been so long time I have heard Blass/Klietmann names, I had already forgotten them.

When I now look at that KO more carefully and details from other pictures, I agree with Trevor - the one I posted is probably a fake - at least if compare to other pictures of similar types I'd come to that conclusion.

[streptile]

Do any of you gentlemen happen to have catalog photos ... by Klietmann and/or Blass?

God, wouldn't that be great? It'd make this all so much easier.

I feel like one day Klietmann's "Godet" catalogue might surface, but nothing has yet.

[Leroy]

I was hoping for something perhaps from the Graf Klenau catalogs. I think I have 1 or 2 buried around here somewhere, but it would take a miracle to find them right now.

Merry Christmas!

[avensis2000]

I have a big pile of Klenau's catalogues from 70's & 80's. I check if find something worth posting when I have time for that. Problem is though, all pictures are black&white and small unless if they are pictures on cover or back of catalogue...

Could be interesting though, now since this topic got into this direction.