Someone got lucky

[Don D.]

Emedals has several for sale right now.

[sgtdorango]

Emedals has several for sale right now.

Bazinga!!...thanks for the info....i guess that was a heckuva deal if real!!.....mike

[blind pew]

Emedals has several for sale right now.

So obviously you think that there are far more than 300 period WW1 PLMs out there?

Keep in mind that two of those PLMs on emedals have been discussed extensively. Further, there are PLMs listed as "sold" that have sold years ago, but are still on the site. Lastly, if I recall, two are pre WW1 and there are Shickel and Roth makers as well.

[Don D.]

I'm not sure how one would estimate the number of surviving PLMs. I do know that if one looks hard enough you can find one.

[streptile]

Just one of eMedals' stock is what would be considered a WWI award-type piece, and it's silver gilt.

If the pictured PLM is indeed gold, the value is about $35,000 judging by recent auction results.

[blind pew]

I'm not sure how one would estimate the number of surviving PLMs. I do know that if one looks hard enough you can find one.

Agreed- it would be hard to estimate the number of wartime PLMs around today.

If we take the 680 some odd awarded crosses and presume that at least half died or were captured by the end of WW2, we have 340. This presumes that-

a. PLMs were returned to prussia. Apparently this policy was not enforced to the extent that it was prior to the war.

b. many of those who died in combat in WW1 and WW2 were wearing their awards and the PLM was lost as a result.

c. those wearing thier awards when captured in WW1 or WW2 had them "acquired" by their captors.

d. a 10% "loss rate" over 100 years in which awards which were retained were simply tossed or lost by relatives/heirs.


There is always an attrition of artifacts over time. This is why everyone does not have thier ancestor's musket/awards/swords/knives/jewelry/silverware in their posession- the stuff gets lost.

One thing we can be sure of is that there are a hell of a lot fewer authentic, wartime awarded PLMs now than there was in 1918.

[Don D.]

One thing we can be sure of is that there are a hell of a lot fewer authentic, wartime awarded PLMs now than there was in 1918.

Concur.

I wonder how many of the recipiants had a second or third one during the war as they did get damaged.

[Zepenthusiast]

A couple of thoughts, Blind Pew:

Human attrition and loss of the award were logically high among pilots and submariners, to be sure (assuming even wearing issue PlM), but very many of the WWI crosses went to higher ranking officers in all branches, among whom casualties would have been much lower. Furthermore, most of them still living to serve actively in WWII would have been higher ranking yet, and thus even less vulnerable to combat losses.

Also, those Orden "liberated" from their captured owners would not in general be "lost" to us, but rather may represent a good number of those now in the collector's market "pool," recirculating amongst new generations. I rather hope more than a few original PlMs yet reside safely in the hands of their recipient's family, still, and may never see the auction block. As Brian has pointed out, in those very hard times after both wars, things were sold...but for sure not everyone would or did (case in point your recent achievement!)

Overall, you must be correct in saying there can't be all that many wartime examples still out and about, but not sure about cutting the number nearly in half.

On the other hand, even though, as Don points out, one can readily find one if you are looking and well-bankrolled, I suspect most aficionados would have a hard time coming up with a list of even 50 unique examples encountered in person, seen in publication, or via discussion with others in a lifetime--would guess for most it may be a few dozen at best? I would wonder if even Stephen Previtera could cite 100 of them of which he has specific knowledge?

So time, which devours all things as is said, has likely consumed a high number of that 680 presumed solitary and original issue, but is it likely half of them are gone?

[blind pew]

A couple of thoughts, Blind Pew:

Human attrition and loss of the award were logically high among pilots and submariners, to be sure (assuming even wearing issue PlM), but very many of the WWI crosses went to higher ranking officers in all branches, among whom casualties would have been much lower. Furthermore, most of them still living to serve actively in WWII would have been higher ranking yet, and thus even less vulnerable to combat losses.

Also, those Orden "liberated" from their captured owners would not in general be "lost" to us, but rather may represent a good number of those now in the collector's market "pool," recirculating amongst new generations. I rather hope more than a few original PlMs yet reside safely in the hands of their recipient's family, still, and may never see the auction block. As Brian has pointed out, in those very hard times after both wars, things were sold...but for sure not everyone would or did (case in point your recent achievement!)

Overall, you must be correct in saying there can't be all that many wartime examples still out and about, but not sure about cutting the number nearly in half.

On the other hand, even though, as Don points out, one can readily find one if you are looking and well-bankrolled, I suspect most aficionados would have a hard time coming up with a list of even 50 unique examples encountered in person, seen in publication, or via discussion with others in a lifetime--would guess for most it may be a few dozen at best? I would wonder if even Stephen Previtera could cite 100 of them of which he has specific knowledge?

So time, which devours all things as is said, has likely consumed a high number of that 680 presumed solitary and original issue, but is it likely half of them are gone?

If captured by the Russians, one would assume that those PLMs are gone.

One wonders as well how many PLMs were returned to Prussia (as was "required") upon the death of the recipient through 1945?

Regarding multiple crosses, I presume that these are the Godets and "odd" Wagners that we see pop up periodically that inspire debates here regarding authenticity. When buying a second PLM, one would not be too concerned that the PLM was identical to the awarded piece.

This is why I think that there are not that many actual wartime awarded Wagners and Freidlanders out there. Not that it makes a big difference either way.