imperial pilot badge ID

[herkules]

Hi Guys,

please help with ID !

Any issues ?

Thanks

Wolf

[Ferg 1]

Badge is good issue type,maker might be Delinius (is that spelt right?) , a lot of people seem to think they are ,these were made in war time and after so not easy to tell when made. I would say a later piece perhaps as the only clue is the die flaw/fault in the right hand crown arch top which seems to be worse on some than others so assume (rightly or wrongly) that the bad ones or more noticeably 'scarred' ones are later as the die tool was worn . Ferg

[Kornel R.]

I'm sure Ferg has much better knowledge about them then me , so I can only friendly correct his small spelling mistake related to maker's name - I hope he doesn't mind
It's Carl Dillenius
with regards
Kornel

ps. BTW congratulations - very nice , original issue badge !!

[DDCOOK]

Superb original badge!!! A nice one to add to the collection.

Dan

[M Wipf]

IMO, this is original to the 1920s/30s.

[herkules]

P/b ww i

Hallo Fluglehrer,

please indicate any sound reasoning for your assumption !

Any issue why you decided to ID a 'post war' production ??

Thank you !

wolf

[Ferg 1]

I would say that it is very difficult to tell which era this was made,these were produced in war time and beyond. Pin style in some cases may be a clue but if anything a base metal example like this is quite likely to be war time . Ferg.

[phild]

It's a discussion that I would really like to see on the forum, if it could remain civil. I know years ago there was an excellent thread here that had a lot of good discussion on collector beliefs between award badges and private purchase and what was pre 1919 made and was not. I also know that the debate (evidence) is inconclusive.

I bring this up because we have had 3 very focused and extensive books on flight badges published within the last 3-4 years and the questions above were not fully addressed in any of those in my opinion.

I have (like many others) tried to research this for many years/decades really, and I am not 100% sure of what I believe, but evidence leads me to believe that the Juncker 800 (in all of its marking variations) and the Juncker iron non-backed "stamped" type were in fact award badges from the pre-war period to 1918 (and beyond 20/21) and that there is a chronology of these badges that can be determined from the placement (location) and content of the markings....including the broken 'E" die flaw, the iron stamped badges being very late of course, maybe the last part of 1918.

What I question is the use of plated brass or tombac as an award badge and for that matter the use of brass (or tombac) as the base metal of later wartime badges as this metal (the copper mostly) was very controlled after 1915/16.

Sorry of the long post, but the answer is not a 3 word comment.

In summary I feel (but do not know) that the so-called stamped badges were not in fact the normal award badge of the war except in the case of the iron core silver finished Juncker type and others (of any?) made of iron (mild steel) base metal.

I tend to think that most or all of the brass based badges were post WWI or maybe a best some were wartime private purchase.

The type that I have no opinion on are the "German Silver" stamped variations.

[M Wipf]

Hallo Fluglehrer,

please indicate any sound reasoning for your assumption !

Any issue why you decided to ID a 'post war' production ??

Thank you !

wolf

Hi Wolf,

Sorry for not getting back to you right away, I forgot to subscribe to this thread. I just noticed your inquiry this morning. You have some excellent responders here and their opinions combined with my spending three hours pouring over the three books mentioned by "phild" , I have changed my opinion to, there's now way to know for sure when your badge was produced. It's a beautiful badge.

All the best ..

[Ferg 1]

Hi Phild, I have to say that in all my collecting years and all the juncker badges I have owned (lots) I have never seen or even heard of an iron example as you state. Buntmetal as a base ,nickel ,tombac and silver but never iron . You got one of these to look at ? Ferg

[phild]

Hi Phild, I have to say that in all my collecting years and all the juncker badges I have owned (lots) I have never seen or even heard of an iron example as you state. Buntmetal as a base ,nickel ,tombac and silver but never iron . You got one of these to look at ? Ferg

I may be slightly incorrect when I use the term iron. This type is for sure a ferrous iron based metal. I assume that it is either stamped from a thin soft iron blank or mild steel. Either way the metal is I suspect low carbon and will corrode fairly easily as most softer irons and steels will.

I can cite the page numbers later if needed, but there are a few examples shown in the books mentioned above. I bought an example back in the early 80s in Germany, now owned by a friend of mine and I believe that this variation is absolutely a Juncker product or certainly made with the Juncker dies.

They were silver (possibley nickel) plated .

[Ferg 1]

I feel you are probably referring to the Carsten Baldes reference book that shows several badges struck in iron/steel and are attributed (wrongly) to Juncker. Unfortunately it seems the 'thing' that once a subject has been committed to a reference book it becomes 'written in stone' fact. Don't get me wrong ,the book is a comprehensive well structured reference but is also laced with errors, wrongly attributed badges/makers being a common factor. The badges in question and the same one that started this thread are certainly not Juncker products ,do a comparision and you will see that they are quite different in detail not to mention the reverse hardware. I assume this work is the one you refer to. Ferg

[phild]

I feel you are probably referring to the Carsten Baldes reference book that shows several badges struck in iron/steel and are attributed (wrongly) to Juncker. Unfortunately it seems the 'thing' that once a subject has been committed to a reference book it becomes 'written in stone' fact. Don't get me wrong ,the book is a comprehensive well structured reference but is also laced with errors, wrongly attributed badges/makers being a common factor. The badges in question and the same one that started this thread are certainly not Juncker products ,do a comparision and you will see that they are quite different in detail not to mention the reverse hardware. I assume this work is the one you refer to. Ferg

After re-looking the photos I agree with you that the iron/steel badges the Carsten attributes to Juncker are like the one (maker yet identified) that started this thread. This style and material badge is also shown in S. Previtera's book with maker unknown. None of the iron badges photographed in these books nor the one that I owned showed much if any flaw in the right (as viewed) crown arch and IMO some of the other detail in the crown area is less defined on the iron strikes compared to the brass base strikes and that made it appear to me more like the Juncker in that area, but I tend to agree with you at this point that they are not in fact Juncker.

I was not concerned about the pin and catch arrangement not being of the classic Juncker pattern as I felt that Juncker would have used this simple wrap style needle pin on every badge made this way much like the late 1918 wound badges were made (also of iron as well) and so this was not a factor for me originally.

I have a badge like the one that started this thread so I have every reason to wish that they are wartime badges, not that I think it makes a huge difference in there desirability or legitimacy. I tend to lean more toward those with the longer pin/catch set up being wartime and the ones with no or little crown arch flaw.....both characteristics seem to be found together and in most if not all cases I have seen all of the iron badges have those two characteristics, but I have seen far less than you I'm sure.

I know what you mean about mistakes once published becoming facts that never seem to go away and even being repeated time and again in other books! I have written of that often of that on this forum and I am not "one of those guys" who believe everything published.

Thanks for correcting the attribution of these iron badges and maybe one day we can figure out the maker and the timeline that they made them, whether for official award or private sales.

[Rich G]

I was under the impression this is the type associated to the maker Dilleniu:




This example appears to be made from neusilber.


Rich

[Ferg 1]

Hi Rich, we can only guess until more evidence comes to light,but I believe that the square punch marked items ( yours is of that maker too )are sometimes accompanied with CD so that would make sense. Ferg