Discuss about Waldeck-Pyrmont Verdienstkreuz 1.Klasse mit Schwertern on Emedals

[Josias]

Hi all, I just want to talk about my doubts. If this sounds stupid, never mind, I know I'm not cool man yet. I makes many mistakes and clumsy.

http://www.emedals.com/collectors-ga...ck-merit-order
As you guys can see Emedals have sold Waldeck-Pyrmont Verdienstkreuz 1.Klasse mit Schwertern for $6,500,00 long time ago I guess.

http://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?au...766&lot=949923
But after I saw this I got some doubts which the Emedals might have sold fake one. In this auction Verdienstkreuz has been sold for €380 on November 2013.
This one looks just like the same with Emedals one, on that auction they state that Verdienstkreuz is from 1970's which refers to FAKE.
But I don't know when did Emedals sell the Verdienstkreuz, not sure they bought it via that auction or sold it much long time ago before that auction.

Anyway, I compared the pictures.

Both of the stains on the swords seems completely same.(or should I say matched?)
The auction said it is fake, Emedals sold it as genuine. Who is the right side?

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=1107&lot=277
And there is another point that same one is on sale again.

I compared them again

and they seems the same again.

So point is..Is it fake or not?
Because lack of knowledge I couldn't make sure whether it is fake or not by myself, So I compared Emedals one with another genuine one and 1970's one sold on same auctions.





According to this compared pictures, Letters "Dem Der dienste" shapes seems different with Emedals one and genuine one, also the star sign shapes does. and compare with Emedals one and 1970's one, Latters and star signs completely matched.
It does seems the period genuine one got different shape of latters and star signs from 1970's fake.

So what I doubt is, Did Emedals sell 1970's fake for $6,500,00??
Any thoughts?

And I could be wrong in many points or less, cause I'm just a starter.
It might be just differences between Gold and Silver plated(Vergoldet) type.
Thanks for reading this. I hope I didn't wasted your time.
Now I need to take a nap.

[Montgomery Burns]

you seen it well

Fritz Rudolf Künker GmbH & Co. KG | Auction 240 | 19 November 2013
states it is a fake that should not exist

looking at you're pictures E medals is selling the same cross as original ..

I wonder what the story is behind that ,,,,maybe,,?,, E medals got fooled to ,,,,,,,by his reliable source he'd trusted .




regards kay

[Don D.]

There are many possibilities. You have awarded pieces, wearers copies/zweite stueck, and different manufacturers from the 1900-45 era.

[Josias]

you seen it well

Fritz Rudolf Künker GmbH & Co. KG | Auction 240 | 19 November 2013
states it is a fake that should not exist

looking at you're pictures E medals is selling the same cross as original ..

I wonder what the story is behind that ,,,,maybe,,?,, E medals got fooled to ,,,,,,,by his reliable source he'd trusted .




regards kay

Yes, it said there is no such type like that and fooled 1970's collectors if I translate it right.
I guess I need to assume when did Emedals got that piece.
Thanks for the comment.

[Josias]

There are many possibilities. You have awarded pieces, wearers copies/zweite stueck, and different manufacturers from the 1900-45 era.

Yes, so many possibilities. This is why I want to discuss about this.
Especially it is hard to find info about the Waldeck-Pyrmont pieces, I can not be sure indeed. Thanks for remind me about it.

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=1107&lot=277

and in this auction, described it as 1918~1950 post WWI copy maybe they meant wearers copy.

[Montgomery Burns]

collectors replacement production they say ,,,1918/1950

one thing is sure ,,its not counted to the originals examples ..






regards kay

[Josias]

collectors replacement production they say ,,,1918/1950

one thing is sure ,,its not counted to the originals examples ..






regards kay

Yup, Sammleranfertigung!
If it worth to research, I might consider buy that one and get on a research.
in case if it really worth it. I don't want to use money on that kinda unsure thing generally.
Anyway I wonder how Emedals thought.

[Josias]

http://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deu...chwertern.html

and I just realized that ehrenzeichen-orden.de is using the Emedals photo which I consider might be fake.
also I realized I couldn't find another genuine example of Verdienstkreuz 1.Klasse mit Schwertern as you guys can see I compared with without sword type.
This means there is a possibility which there might have difference between sword and none sword type. Whatever it is there are many possibilities.

But the point is what is the Emedals story..

[Rangemaster]

collectors replacement production they say ,,,1918/1950

one thing is sure ,,its not counted to the originals examples ..






regards kay

Hello Kay:

I think that after 1970 or so would possibly be correct as to the date of manufacture. Does anyone have any of the old Klenau catalogues? I have seen far more counterfeit Waldeck pieces than original pieces over the years. Genuine Waldeck pieces are rather rare/scarce for most awards.

Best regards,

[Montgomery Burns]

I think you put us on tho something bigger .

Rangemaster,

I thank you fore bringing this up ..

this 1970's copy is made so good,, an old thought I have came up very strongly.


this copy is made by a jeweler known to the skills of the real medal makers.

maybe a jeweler who wryly made medals in the past ,,picked it up in the 1970's

also meaning that,, the Spanish fake plm looks like a joke if that man would have picked up the PLM making to ...

so I wonder if someone takes up producing such a rare medal as the Waldeck (in such perfection) WY not the PLM ?

I think we should revisit old threads with email peaces of to good condition. and see a bit more closely what the small deviations are ,,,

I think you put us on tho something bigger here.


regards kay

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

I perfectly know that cross (seen in my hands and, after quality and manufacture, obviously one of the many fakes or fantasy pieces that flooded the german market from the '60s up to the late '80s).

eMedals had it from an auction house late in 2007 or early 2008, where it was wrongly described and thus, the Canadian firm had any right to return it back. The only curious thing is that it appears as "sold".

Later, it was sold at Künker, where their expert of orders and decorations, correctly described for what it actually is: a fantasy piece.

I can confirm that the pictures posted in this discussion, depict the very same piece.

E.L.

[Josias]

Hello,

I perfectly know that cross (seen in my hands and, after quality and manufacture, obviously one of the many fakes or fantasy pieces that flooded the german market from the '60s up to the late '80s).

eMedals had it from an auction house late in 2007 or early 2008, where it was wrongly described and thus, the Canadian firm had any right to return it back. The only curious thing is that it appears as "sold".

Later, it was sold at Künker, where their expert of orders and decorations, correctly described for what it actually is: a fantasy piece.

I can confirm that the pictures posted in this discussion, depict the very same piece.

E.L.

Thanks for the info, at least it seems Emedals didn't mean to crook it or something like that.
So it is fake, Now that fake is now on Leipzig auction.
Now I wonder this fake ones destiny I suppose..

[Rangemaster]

Thanks for the info, at least it seems Emedals didn't mean to crook it or something like that.
So it is fake, Now that fake is now on Leipzig auction.
Now I wonder this fake ones destiny I suppose..

Hello again:

This is an excellent point about the e-medals business. I believe that they probably realized that it was not a correct piece and removed it from their inventory. I think that they are learning about theses pieces and make mistakes from time to time. Not everyone can know everything about such items. I mostly study/collect Imperial German items, and it takes years of studying these items to know what is genuine (and I learn something new every day). E-medals has a huge inventory with all countries and eras covered. I do not think that they are willfully trying to deceive collectors, but are trying to run an honest business. I have known of some dealers however who will do ANYTHING to make money!

Best regards,

[Josias]

Now I considering shoot a mail about this to Emedals.
Do you guys think this is bad idea? Yup, they might not care about this at all.

or else I could buy that fake from that auction and demand refund to Emedals hahaha

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

I think that the chronology should be this one:

1) an auction house put for sale this cross (omitting by mistake, to say that it was a copy) late in 2007- early 2008;
2) eMedals bought the cross and put for sale on its site;
3) eMedals sold the cross to a collector;
4) the collector, once detected the copy, returned the cross to eMedals;
5) eMedals returned the cross tho the auction house at point 1, being refunded;
6) the cross appeared again at Künker's in Nov. 2013, correctly described as a copy;
7) the cross was sold for 380,- Euro;
8) the cross appears again on a webpage, depicted as a specimen of this order;
9) the cross appears for sale at Leipziger Münzhandlung, correctly described as a copy (only I don't agree for having dated it as made between 1918 and 1950. I am sure that it could be dated between 1970-'85).

Points from 1 to 7 are chronologically correct and I am sure about that.

E.L.