Announcement

**streptile** · 04-30-2015, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by Dante Gambino View Post

So where did this POS come from and when was it made?

That POS came from Wilhelm Deumer in Lüdenscheid, probably in the late 1930s but possibly also in the 1950s-1960s. These can be hard to date exactly since Deumer used the same frames before WWII, and after WWII, for their 1914 EKs.

**pzrwest** · 04-30-2015, 08:57 PM

Years ago before there was the internet(1970ish) the rule of thumb to tell an original EKII both WWI and WWII was if the core would move it was an original EKII.... boy were we wrong back then and passed up many original EKII's because the cores would not move

**gregM** · 05-01-2015, 06:57 AM

Originally posted by Dante Gambino View Post

So my question is two parts, first, is there any specific rule to the amount of beads the crown should have, or does it vary by manufacturer.

To help with the first part of your question, I would suggest you take a look at
our database of Imperial crosses. They are listed by maker and show good
examples of original crosses. Take thread can be found here---------

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=263078

**Montgomery Burns** · 05-01-2015, 08:16 AM

Originally posted by Dante Gambino View Post

ok, so im diving into the deep waters of repro ek2 1914 crosses. Ive studied the 9th beads, muffin tops and latvians. So my question is two parts, first, is there any specific rule to the amount of beads the crown should have, or does it vary by manufacturer. Second, refers to the pictures. I have this dog laying around and havent seen another fake like it. Maybe i just didnt look hard enough. Its lighter, but still has a moveable iron core. The crown stick WAY out from the bead, the "3" is leaning inward, the paint is too new and two heavy, hiding detail, and finally the rim has no silver toning you would expect but is turning green. So where did this POS come from and when was it made?

So my question is two parts, first, is there any specific rule to the amount of beads the crown should have, or does it vary by manufacturer.
answer to your first question :
no ,,the beads are random and can variate ,especially on casted cores
by coincidence the ninth bead fake was having a bigger bead on the ninth place ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, collectors took it as easiest identification point for this fake .

the paint is too new and two heavy, hiding detail, and finally the rim has no silver toning you would expect but is turning green. So where did this POS come from and when was it made
answer to your second question :
indeed this cross is seen as a 1940 to 1960 production .( maybe even later )
most likely not made from silver but buntmetal .( pressed core )
hiding detail indicated a 1957 production .
a tip ,,separate 1870 fake study , 1914 fake and 1930's fake study ,,al 3 are are a different ball game in themselves .

regards kay

**Montgomery Burns** · 05-01-2015, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by pzrwest View Post

Years ago before there was the internet(1970ish) the rule of thumb to tell an original EKII both WWI and WWII was if the core would move it was an original EKII.... boy were we wrong back then and passed up many original EKII's because the cores would not move

sadly ,,,,in 45 years it has not changed a bit ..

all it takes is :
a reputation ,,
say its dos not look right
a few believers
and its fake

but there is no one to blame on this matter ,
foundation of fake identification was wrong wright from the earliest beginnings of collecting.

as long as there is no real open minded discussion or acceptance fore better foundations ,,,

it will stay like that for the next 40 years

regards kay

**streptile** · 05-01-2015, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by pzrwest View Post

Years ago before there was the internet(1970ish) the rule of thumb to tell an original EKII both WWI and WWII was if the core would move it was an original EKII.... boy were we wrong back then and passed up many original EKII's because the cores would not move

Funny how that was... when I first started collecting I heard that too. Also I heard that any non-magnetic EK was fake. In fact I bought a nice, rare (authentic) zinc-core EK1 for $30 at the SOS a few years back with COPY roughly stamped on the reverse. Whoever did it (probably in the '60s) surely thought they were doing the collecting community a big favor by forever branding the fake.

**Dante Gambino** · 05-02-2015, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by streptile View Post

That POS came from Wilhelm Deumer in Lüdenscheid, probably in the late 1930s but possibly also in the 1950s-1960s. These can be hard to date exactly since Deumer used the same frames before WWII, and after WWII, for their 1914 EKs.

So, how do we as collectors/dealers value a piece like this? and is it fair to call it a reproduction if it was made in the 30's and possible purchased by a german Vet? Is the crown on all Deumers raised as much as this? The quality and condition makes me think its a 60's reproduction with little to no value. But if its a 40's production, perhaps it would have more value to the collector.

thank you for the information by the way.

**gregM** · 05-02-2015, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by Dante Gambino View Post

is it fair to call it a reproduction if it was made in the 30's and possible purchased by a german Vet?

There have been several arguments on the forum over that question.
I do not consider them as reproductions. To me, the word reproduction
means fake. The crosses made and sold during the 1920s and 30s are
not fake. They may not be war time, issue crosses but you have to realize
that lots men only received their award document during the last part of
the war and did not get an actual cross until later.

Value is a whole different argument.

**streptile** · 05-02-2015, 09:40 AM

I agree with Greg, it's not really a reproduction.

I would call a 1914 EK made before 1924 an original, one made for wear by recipients afterwards a copy, and one made to deceive collectors or for reenactors a reproduction.

Announcement

working on my ek2 repro knowledge, look at this one

working on my ek2 repro knowledge, look at this one

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread