Where do I start???????

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hi Guys, I need a point in the right direction a good starting point. I'm interested in exspanding my collection of Medals into the Imperial German era as well. It the collecting and authenticating as pain staking as Third Reich?? What are some good referance books as well. Also, I'm curious as to why most of the Imperial medals are far less than the Third Reich, is it just interest or tons of repos?? Anything to get me started in the right direction would help.
Thanks
Joe

[Rick Research]

It's a mixture of fewer of us collecting (not less INTEREST--fewer of US!), impossibly vast subject areas which require focussed specialization, and much less available published reference material (which is changing--and causing prices to rise, in consequence!).

As with anything else, the FIRST place the Fraud-meisters ruined was the high end stuff, but shoddy modern workmanship and actual materials (real gold, for instance) have pretty much driven the phony "Grand Cross" business into the ground.

Nowadays, there are actually crooks faking 1914 Iron Crosses 2nd Class-- the same "what the bleep FOR?" common stuff fraud poisoning Third Reich collecting. And, if you read back in our threads here, another new practice is the BUTCHERY of medal bars to make stupefyingly absurd Frankenstein horrors.

[Eric Gaumann]

Hi Joe,
Welcome to the Imperial world. You're gonna love it.
It depends on your budget, of course, but maybe you might like to get one or two medals from each of the German states that existed before 1919. Or you might want to go for some of the less common medal bars that are still quite inexpensive (as compared to Third Reich). They are exceedingly beautiful and there are endless variations to collect. Then again you might want to specialize in one medal, like the EK 1 or 2, the Hindenburgh Cross, or the Wound Badge and collect all it's different makers. Or pick one of the German states that you may have relatives from. Or surf the web endlessly, like I do, in search of good deals on common stuff.
Give us an idea of what you like or don't like and we'd be more than happy to help out.
This forum is a great place to learn, and to see actual pictures of what's out there.
So go nuts, and don't let the wife know what's going on.

[Joseph D'Errico]

Imperial Medals

Thanks guys for the start, the reading has already begun. The name of a good referance book would help. I think that I would find ribbon bars a great place to start. I also need the names if not yourselfs that would be able to offer such pieces. I would like to start with some low end pieces to get the feel for the workmanship as well as weight , detail ectt. A couple of experimental pieces so to speak. Before I jump in head first, with the "get burned and learn" method.
Thanks
Joe

[Eric Gaumann]

ebay's full of common ribbon bars, dirt cheap if you know what to look out for. And there is a certain special someone on this list that has more Imperial ribbon bars than he knows what to do with. Stoagie-meister, front and center.........

[Tom Y]

I'm biased, but EKII's is a good pace to start. They're inexpensive, easy to come by, and there's an almost infinite variety. They're also the basis for most medal bars. The only drawback is that to the non-initiated your displays look rather boring. Better yet, go back to 3rd Reich zinky stinkys and leave the good stuff for us

[Rick Research]

Ribbon bars? ...

Peruse the Article (bring a canteen and snack food) on the other half of this website.

[Eric Gaumann]

stinky zinc

That's funny, Tom and it might bear some explaination for the uninitiated. The worst looking metal that Third Reich medals and badges were made from is Zinc. It's a bland grey light-weight metal that was used closer to the end of the war when all the better metals were used for more important war-time applications.
And the way that I remember that is with the simple rhyme: 'zinc stinks'. When I'm surfing for medals and I find something that fits my price range I first check what the medal/badge is actually made from. If it's zinc I move on.

[mott5ranch]

I'd start with the basic simple medal combos. EK2 and a Hindenburg cross and go from there. Some guys collect from various regions like Bavarian awards, Saxon awards, etc. I just grab what looks good to me medal wise that I can afford at the moment. The selections in Imperial medals and awards are much wider. You'll like the change...I mean addition to your collection.

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hi guys , thanks for your advice. Rick, I started looking at some of the intel on the site. A lunch isn't gonna make the hall. Ha,Ha. I need to become one with begining. Hey, Tom your funny,and true I'm getting tired of those over price zinky stinkys . By the way Rick most excellent research page on ribbon bars. How long did that take ??? What a great research tool, I never thought much of ribbon bars, but now that I know a little more I think that they are very cool and will start to research them as well. I'll see you guys in five years,Ha ,Ha.
Thanks
Joe

[Daniel Krause]

Hi Joe,

welcome at the Imperial side of the medal collecting world!

You ask for good reference books. I dont know a lot of English books on that theme. I German there are plenty of good books around.

The Base should be:
- Nimmergut Orden und Ehrenzeichen Katalog 1800-1945, a small handbook, not really good but the best overview
- Krischer / Nimmergut: Bänderkatalog 1800-1945
- Nimmergut: Handbuch Deutsche Orden (I mean the small old one, not the highly expensive 4 crap-books published the last years)
- Graf Klenau: Großer Deutscher Ordenskatalog
- von Hessenthal / Schreiber: Die Ehrenzeichen des Deutschen Reiches, this boom is from the 40iers, but good reprints are around

Please get in contact with Michael Autengruber, he has the biggest offer of books in Germany (www.phv-verlag.de)

Best regards

Daniel

P.S. Ribbon bars??? Thats brave, but for that You have to fight with at least a half-dozend association members!

[Dave Danner]

Obviously, start with building a base of knowledge.

Like every other area of collecting I started with what I could (a) find and (b) afford. With eBay, online dealers and auction houses, and other resources (like this forum), the Internet has really changed (a) for the better. Unfortunately, it seems to have changed (b) for the worse. In too many cases there's somebody with just a little more money and often there's somebody else with even more money and even less sense.

In Imperial, my initial focus was/is the basic bravery and military merit awards of the various states. The reasons: (1) many are relatively inexpensive and are not hard to find, so you can build up a nice representative collection fairly quickly; (2) having gotten the basic ones, you then have the thrill of the hunt for the rarer ones; and finally, and most importantly, (3) the medals represent history and soldierly virtues well. Grand Crosses of Ducal House Orders may be pretty, but most recipients got them by accident of birth. An Iron Cross or a Saxon Friedrich August Medal may be all a former private ever got for his service, but in most cases he earned them.

If you can get the story behind a medal or group, that's great, but sometimes it's enough to just hold the medal and wonder what stories it might tell (even if that story is "it was cold and rainy, I was up to my hips in mud, maggots and rotting flesh, everything sucked and the only reason I climbed out of that trench that day was everybody else was and anything, even crawling through barbed wire and bullets, seemed preferable to spending another day picking lice out my friend's hair and wondering how they would go with the stale, moldy bread and boiled horsemeat (or was that dog yesterday?)")

Dave

[Dave Danner]

Oh, the list:

Relatively common and inexpensive:<ul>
<li>Prussia: Iron Cross (2 classes, awarded to all ranks)
<li>Bavaria: Military Merit Cross (6 grades - 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, with and without crowns, based on rank; enlisted men only)
<li>Saxony: Friedrich August Medal (silver and bronze, enlisted men and civilians)
<li>Württemberg: Silver Military Merit Medal (enlisted men only)
<li>Baden: Silver Merit Medal on the ribbon of the Military Karl-Friedrich Merit Order (enlisted men only)
<li>Hessen: General Honor Decoration "For Bravery"(all ranks?)
</ul>
Slightly less common but relatively inexpensive:<ul>
<li>Mecklenburg-Schwerin: Military Merit Cross (2 classes, all ranks; 1st class is relatively rare)
<li>Oldenburg: Friedrich August Cross (2 classes, all ranks)
<li>Anhalt: Friedrich Cross (1 class, all ranks)
<li>Brunswick: War Merit Cross (2 classes, all ranks, 1st class is rarer)
<li>Lippe-Detmold: War Merit Cross (2 classes, all ranks, 1st class is rarer)
<li>Hamburg: Hanseatic Cross (1 class, all ranks)</ul>
Rarer and pricier, but out there:<ul>
<li>Mecklenburg-Strelitz: Cross for Distinction in War, "Brave and Loyal" (2 classes, all ranks; 1st class is rare)
<li>Saxe-Weimar: General Honor Decoration with Clasp and Swords (gold, silver & bronze; enlisted only)
<li>Saxe-Altenburg: Bravery Medal (one class, enlisted only?; there was also the much rarer Duke Ernst Medal with Swords)
<li>Saxe-Coburg-Gotha: Silver Merit Medal of the Ducal Saxe-Ernestine House Order with Swords Clasp (enlisted only; this was also an award of Saxe-Altenburg and Saxe-Meiningen, but their own medals were more common; Saxe-Coburg also had the Duke Carl Eduard Medal 2nd Class with Swords and Date, open to all ranks, but this was also rare)
<li>Saxe-Meiningen: Cross & Medal for Merit in War (cross = officer; medal = enlisted)
<li>Schaumburg-Lippe: Cross for Loyal Service (2 classes, all ranks; 1st class is rare)
<li>Reuss: Silver Merit Medal with Swords (enlisted only)
<li>Schwarzburg: Silver Medal for Merit in War (enlisted only?)
<li>Waldeck: Silver Merit Medal with Swords (enlisted only)
<li>Bremen and Lübeck: Hanseatic Crosses (same as Hamburg)</ul>
I also would include the Principality of Hohenzollern, even though it was part of Prussia, because its House Order and Medals continued to be awarded.

A bravery/merit collection wouldn't be complete without the various pinback crosses established during the war by Reuss, Saxe-Weimar, Saxe-Altenburg, Saxe-Coburg, but these are exceedingly rare and expensive.

There's also the lower grades of the various knightly orders, which junior officers would get for bravery or merit. These also range from (relatively) common and inexpensive to rare and expensive. The most affordable are probably the Bavarian Military Merit Order, the Baden Order of the Zähringen Lion, and the Saxon Albert Order.

One approach, as Gary suggested and which I am thinking of pursuing, is trying to collect the basic 3-medal bar combos of Iron Cross 2nd Class, basic state award, and Hindenburg Cross. They would make a nice display and would showcase the typical veteran's awards.

Dave

[Zach]

Dave,
Very informative and well put. Joe, click on the "WWW" under Dave's post and then click on "Military Collectibles" and follow to see items of which Dave has spoken. My personal favorites (of which I'm lucky to have 2) are the Zähringer Lions.
Zach

[McCulloh]

my 2 cents...

Joe:
I'd throw in The Iron Time and Gordon Williamsons' soon to be published Iron Cross Book and Neal O'Conners' 6 volume set.
The latter are about 80% aviation history, but its great to read what guys did to win their awards.
As a start i'd buy Hessenthal and then print off photos of everything from the various website thats' not illustrated in the book. It only covers medals and decorations-not orders, but its' a great start.
I also keep a note book of varied topics that come up here. You'd be amazed how quickly you forget stuff from only 2 years ago.
Cheers,
JeMc