1870 - 1920 11 Place FRAK Medal Bar

[AustinMilitaria]

This was a recent find right out of the woodwork. One of the largest bars I have ever found, bar starts with an 1870 EK, 25 year officer service, and a 7 year service medal at the end.

Medal bar was made by Max Kiist, Berlin.

Is there anyway to help ID who the Large medal bar may have belonged to? I would imagine there were not a lot of 65+ year olds that served in the navy or in the Navy administration by 1920.


Thanks.

[Konigtiger]

The problem that I am seeing with this bar is concerned with the Albrecht Orden (4th from the right). It was not awarded in this grade in 1870, as it was only established in 1876. However, it is also near-impossible to be a WW1 award, as this particular grade was awarded to Lieutenants, whilst the pre-war Order of the Red Eagle (2nd from right) was given out to Captains and Majors only.

Also I can't make out the inscription on the bottom of the left-most medal. If it is a Landwehr award it is fine, but if it is an enlisted man's 12 year service award than that is another discrepancy.

Further images of the back would be welcome.

[Brian L.]

The bar in terms of a timeline doesn't make much sense. For example, by the time of the award of the Silesian Eagle, this guy would likely have been at least in his late 60s. It would be nearly impossible to be awarded the SA at that age. Chances that a man in his late 60s, early 70s would get the 2 unofficial Naval vanity awards seems pretty impossible to me.

Firstly you should post some detailed close-up shots of the EKII to verify if it's a genuine 1870.

I suspect that this is a WW1 bar that's been mucked with. If it had a 1914 EKII, a Hindy instead of the 1870-71 Denkmunze, and Landwehr LS at the end, then it would be more plausible.

[morel5000]

Hi,

it is also missing the 25 oaks on the 1870 ek2. A vane man he would add those.

From these pics the ek2 does look a genuine type A. So far my input...

Best regards,
Michel

[AustinMilitaria]

The problem that I am seeing with this bar is concerned with the Albrecht Orden (4th from the right). It was not awarded in this grade in 1870, as it was only established in 1876. However, it is also near-impossible to be a WW1 award, as this particular grade was awarded to Lieutenants, whilst the pre-war Order of the Red Eagle (2nd from right) was given out to Captains and Majors only.

Further images of the back would be welcome.

From what I found the Albert order with swords was issued starting 1866.

[römischIX]

He was too old for the Marineinfanterie.

[AustinMilitaria]

Here is a photo of the back. Also the very most left medal is a 12 yr enlisted service medal, it was used to cover a medal as a different ribbon is underneath.

[AustinMilitaria]

He was too old for the Marineinfanterie.

Could he have been awarded the WWI Naval medals serving as an administrator?

[Brian L.]

The problem that I am seeing with this bar is concerned with the Albrecht Orden (4th from the right). It was not awarded in this grade in 1870, as it was only established in 1876.

I agree that this is an issue. It seems unlikely he would have received a Type II Albert Order Knight II with swords in WWI. He would have been too old to be a junior officer. Based on the bar, there is no other reason for him to have gotten it after 1876 and prior to WWI.
If by some stretch of the imagination he received the Albert Order for 1870, it would have been Type I, Knight I with swords.

Anything is possible. But, I think this bar challenges credulity. I think parts are proper. But, other medals have been replaced.

[AustinMilitaria]

The back.

[Brian R]

Yes, this is not a plausible set-up. However, the construction looks period. Could this possibly be a mock-up made for a display window or something similar?

[AustinMilitaria]

The furthest left medal.

[Brian R]

The ribbon under the LS medal is not an issue. Other ribbons were often used as padding, etc.

[AustinMilitaria]

The Albert Order, Order of the Crown and the Order of the red Eagle are all made by Wagner.

[Konigtiger]

From what I found the Albert order with swords was issued starting 1866.

The swords are not the problem. In 1866 the Albert Order had only one grade of the Knight's cross. In 1876 it was split into 2 grades , with the pre-1876 version becoming the Knight's Cross 1st class and the new grade the Knight's cross 2nd class (the one shown on the bar).

Thus the Albert Order 2nd Class shown on the bar cannot have been an 1870 award, as it was not in existence at the time. It is also practically impossible to be a WW1 award, because even if the 1870 medal has replaced the Hindenburg Cross, there is still the small matter of the Order of the Red Eagle.

The last medal is also plainly wrong, as it was only handed out to enlisted men, which the owner of this bar was clearly not.

For it to be 100% correct three pieces have to be changed, the 12 year service medal, the 1870 medal and the Order of Albert Knight's Cross 2nd Class, probably for a Treuedienst Ehrenzeichen, Hindenburg Cross and Order of Albert Knight's Cross 1st Class.