Bavarian pilot badge

[Giel VW]

I'm not home now so can't take fresh close ups, but the mark on the pin is a bent mark, not a makermark.

[Matthew]

Thanks Giel. I am sure you can see why I tried to compare 'apples to pears' as you put it from the pics above- as you can see I am not the only one who saw what looked a square mark towards the top of the pin.

To answer your question from previous post- I compared your badge against any and all in both books and came up empty handed.

One thing that is always seen on any hollow Juncker (whether pilot, observer or other aircrew badges) is a hollow cross on top of the crown so the claim of 'identical construction' seem to be a bit inaccurate.
Not a feature completely unheard of but never seen on a Juncker badge (to date & by me at least- but I have been wrong before and haven't seen it all either). They are however seen on a fake hollow badges more often than not.

Other points of contention are as marked- particular curve on the left hand leaf, lower part missing of the one on the right, bottom part of the propeller shorter than the upper and the ribbon which seem to get thicker towards the top rather than the opposite usually seen on a CEJ badge. Impossible to judge the hardware as it simply can not be seen in the pics provided. I don't think I have to explain why I think the other badge pictured is a reproduction as it is IMO obvious.
The indents that accommodate for the lower sides of the Prussian Crown typically visible on Bavarian badges where it meets the leaves are missing as well. They are typically visible on Bavarians as the bottom part of the crown is smaller than its Prussian counterpart and exposes those on other Juncker badges.

I noticed Alex was also taking a peek at this thread so maybe him and Ferg will pipe in with their expertise.

All in all- I hope the badge turns out to be the real deal and if it does I will be one of the first trying to get it from you but I feel that a dose of healthy skepticism can save everyone involved some headache later on. And it can just as well be that the pics or the light turned some details looking different than they really are.

cheers

Matt

[Giel VW]

Hi Matt

I'm still not following completely. The badge you compare it to clearly came from an other die, and misses a lot of things which are visible on my badge. Can you post a reverse picture of that one?

I will post extra pictures of the set up tomorrow.

Still looking forwards to other opinions guys, I'm a 101% sure on this piece, and would love to see some identical examples!

[Don D.]

Some of us are not fortunate enough to own one yet.

[DDCOOK]

Found this on another discussion forum...other than being a private purchase example it appears identical in detail to Giel's.

Dan

[DDCOOK]

And the reverse...

[otter76]

And the reverse...

That is not how the reverse of a Bavarian crown should look like. Mixed up Prussian style.

[morel5000]

That is not how the reverse of a Bavarian crown should look like. Mixed up Prussian style.

Based on what badge? Can you show the Bavarian crown?

Best regards,
Michel

[otter76]

Based on what badge? Can you show the Bavarian crown?

Best regards,
Michel

Forget the replacement hinge on this pic. Look at the unique shape of the crown well. It is not the deep cupcake type of the other badge. And if you look closer, there is not weep hole either

[Don D.]

Apples to oranges. You can't compare badges from different makers like this.

[Giel VW]

Not even apples with oranges makerwise, but you can't compare a "howl verbödet" pieces with a hollow badge at all! The heat to put the two parts against each other would shrivel a small hollow crown, THAT is the reason for the big thing on top.

The small crown on my piece is part of a single stamped version, the only way you could make it so small and detailed.

[Ferg 1]

The badge in discussion appears to be an unknown maker, certainly not Juncker or the square punch makers die details. I have seen a commemorative version of this badge ,in fact there were several appear on the market at the same time a few years ago which made me a little worried. This seems to be the same maker and has good convincing details in terms of patina ,hardware ,wear etc... Pin and catch set up do look very Juncker-ish but that seems to be where it ends. The mark on the pin looks like a crude sort of square but may well be coincidence. The badge does look right to me and to find an unknown makers issue badge does not surprise me,you only have to look at period photos of these Bavarian badges in wear to see that there are some unknown designs still out there. Maybe we can see a close up of the area where crown meets wreath, is a marriage of Prussian badge with Bavarian crown ? Ferg

[Ferg 1]

There's plenty of variations out there!