Member's Cross with Swords of the HHO

[Pete Clausen]

Hallo all !

I am seeking a list of the holders of the Member's Cross with Swords of the HHO. Believe that there were some 12 awards made(?). " Above the Lines" names Vizefeldwebel Sebastian Festner of Jasta 11 as the second recipient of this honor on 23.04.17 only two days before he fell in combat. Leutnant Karl Thom of Jasta 21 received this award 04.08.18 some twenty days before his promotion to Leutnant. This is all that I have been able to gather. H-E-L-P !

Pete

[W McSwiggan]

Aviators with Member's Cross

Per O’Connor, Vol. 2, Prussia:

Awards of the Member’s Cross, Royal Hohenzollern House Order with Swords to Aviators (10/16) in the Great War were as follows:

Offizier-Stellvertreter Fritz Kosmahl FA 22 9 Jan 17

Vizefeldwebel Sebastian Festner Jasta 11 23 Apr 17

Offizier-Stellvertreter Josef Scheiffer Schutzstaffel 7 30 May 17

Offizier-Stellvertreter Max Müller Jasta 28 14 Jul 17

Offizier-Stellvertreter Hans Basch KG 3 3 Aug 17

Vizefeldwebel Julius Tillmanns KG 1 23 Aug 17

Offizier-Stellvertreter Krause KG 1 30 Aug 17

Offizier-Stellvertreter Albert Jünger FA 300 16 Oct 17

Offizier-Stellvertreter Karl Thom Jasta 21 7 Aug 18

Vizefeldwebel Franz-Josef Ophaus Schlachtstaffel 11 3 Oct 18

[Pete Clausen]

Thanks ever so much for the list ! 16 Awards total would make this a rare honor. Max Muller would appear to have covered the field with his many awards.

Best wishes, Pete.

[W McSwiggan]

Next to Manfred von Richthofen, Müller was the most decorated German airman holding the highest bravery awards for both officers and enlisted men from Prussia & Bavaria. (Pour le Merite & Mil. Max-Joseph for officers and Member's Cross of the Royal Hohenzollern House Order & the Golden Bravery Medal for enlisted men). He was also the only aviator to hold both the Gold & Silver Bravery Medals. Source - O'Connor, Vol. II, Prussia.

[Daniel Krause]

add a number 17 Edmund Nathanael. Also Flyer, Vizefeldwebel.

He was a jew, so NOT mentioned in the usual 3rd reich sources of WW1 awards.
Same as the plm of Frankl nobody talked about Nathanael.

The Members Cross with swords of the Hohenzolern was the rarest Prussian award in WW1; I´ve seen exactly ONE real piece and ONE ribbon bar and THREE pictures in wear.

Best regards

Daniel

[Pete Clausen]

Gentlemen

Thanks for the information.

With Müller being the second most decorated German aviator would you have any ideas as to the next 3 ? It would appear that Werner Voss was not as well decorated in comparison to Manfred von Richthofen and Max von Müller. Other high-scoring pilots would also come out on the low side regarding awards - Löwenhardt, Jacobs...

Knew very little about Edmund Nathanael. What was the date of his award of the Member's Cross of the Royal Hohenzollern House Order ? According to the list in "Above the Lines" Nathanael was in Jasta 5 from March 1917 until his death on May 11, 1917. A rapid scorer in March and April with 14 victories and his 15th and last in May. Wonder if his award came before his loss or was it posthumous ?

Best wishes, Pete

[W McSwiggan]

The whole discussion on recognition can become very twisted & contentious very quickly.

How & what do you count? Do you simply count the number of awards? Do you count the number of states recognizing the soldier? Do you only consider the most prestigious awards and what would they be? Do you only count the Prussian awards because they were awarded throughout the empire with a supposed even hand for merit? (How do you account for the notorious Prussian-Bavarian squabbling which denied v. Schleich the Knight’s Cross of the Royal Hohenzollern House Order?)

A Prussian in a Prussian unit would almost always come in second to a soldier serving in the contingent of another state or to the non-Prussian. Not many states made a widespread practice of recognizing natives of other states (Bavaria being the most notable exception). Enlisted men rarely got much attention except the aviators.

Clearly all of these discussions are contingent on having access to information and that alone could cause insanity. That said and clearly being insane, I will – based on O’Connor’s work but not blaming it – will attempt to answer in various ways. In order to narrow the search field, I restricted my approach to holders of the Pour le Merite and counted only German awards.

Based on numbers of awards alone:

v. Richthofen - 17

Immelmann – 11

Kissenberth - 11

Boelcke - 10

Jacobs – 10

v. Müller – 10

Based on Prestige of Orders & Decorations (I define prestige - Prussian PlM, RAO, IHHO, GMVK – Bavarian MMJO, GTM – Saxon MStHO – Württemberg WKO, MVO – Baden MKFVO – Hessen KEZ in Iron:

v. Richthofen - PlM, RAO, MstHO, WMVO

v. Müller – PlM, MMJO, IHHO, GTM

Thom – PlM, IHHO, GMVK

Immelmann – PlM, MStHO (CDR!)

Kohl (Bomber Commander) – PlM, WKO, WMVO

Buckler – PlM, GMVK, KEZ in Iron
This represents my stab at it and it is sure to be controversial for parameters, omissions & inclusions… have fun!

[Pete Clausen]

Thanks for the clear and concise view of decorations. This business can become most unfair. There was not much to receive for the Prussians and the enlisted personnel were mainly out of luck. The snub of von Schleich would have to be a classic. Another would be the non-award of the PlM to Paul Billick of Jasta 52. One more , the non-award of the PlM to Claus Rücker commander of U 34 and U 103. Both of these men had the misfortune of becoming prisoners of war. Apparently " out of sight out of mind" applied here and neither man received his award...

Pete

[John5813]

All,


I was wondering if anyone besides v.Muller and Thom received both the IHHO and the GMVK or highest ( or even second highest) award from their home state?

John

[W McSwiggan]

Man – that is one ugly question!

There were 17 IHHO winners & 1770 MVK winners!

Thom held the PlMO, IHHO & MVK

Bäumer held the PlMO & MVK

Buckler held the PlMO & MVK plus Hessen’s KEZ in Eisen

Könnecke held the PlMO & MVK

Rumey held the PlMO & MVK

Ophaus held the IHHO & MVK

von Müller held the PlMO, IHHO, GTM, STM & Württemberg Gold Militär-Verdienst-Medaille

O’Connor is my only source which restricts the MVK information to 69 aviators. My cursory scan of the 69 abbreviated biographies shows only the following:

Flugmeister Bartschis held the MVK & Oldenburg’s FAK I & II

Offizier-Stellvertreter Esswein held the MVK & Württemberg Gold & Silver Militär-Verdienst-Medaille

Offizier-Stellvertreter Leim held the MVK & Württemberg Silver Militär-Verdienst-Medaille

Vizefeldwebel Littig held the MVK & Baden Silver Verdienst-Medaille

Vizefeldwebel Ehmann held the MVK & Württemberg Gold & Silver Militär-Verdienst-Medaille

Offizier-Stellvertreter Friedewald held the MVK & Waldeck Ehrenkreuz

[RupertMC]

Hello.
I'm a new forum member with an interest in WW1 German-jewish pilots for personal, family reasons.

I was therefore very interested to read on this site about Edmund Nathanael and his medal.

What I'm trying to establish is how strong the evidence is that Nathanael was both jewish and a holder of the Member's Cross?

I ask this because although I am not an expert, as I understand it he is not mentioned as being either, (a) jewish or, (b) a Member's Cross winner in any of the main sources on these subjects.

I thank you for any supporting information you may be able to provide on this matter.

[Daniel Krause]

welcome here!

Nathanael IS mentioned in the Militärwochenblatt.
He is not mentioned in any 3rd reich era publications.
Do a google search for Edmund Nathanael and You will find lots more about him.

Best regards

Daniel

[RupertMC]

Dear Daniel.

Thanks for your welcome to this site and also your leads regarding Edmund Nathanael which I have been attempting to follow up. However now I have another question.

On a previous thread on this Forum, ["Quiz Time"], someone asks whether, "there is any more information on the so called "Jewisch" award of this?", [i.e. the Member's award].

Could you please explain what this reference to a "Jewisch award" was? Does the phrase "Jewisch award" refer to a sub-order of the Member's Hohenzollern; or alternatively does it refer to a specific german-jew who was supposed to have been given the award?

I would be very interested to know the answer to this question.

Best wishes. Rupert

[Gerd Becker]

Hello Rupert,

welcome. Nathanael got a normal version of the Members Cross with swords. There was no special jewish version of this award. There was a special jewish version for the Red-Eagle-Order, but i don´t know, if he was awarded it. Many of the Jews, who got the special jewish version of the Red-Eagle-Order returned it for a normal cross.

I guess, "Jewish Award" was just a typo and it refers to especially Nathanaels Hohenzollern cross as the "Jewish Award".

best,
Gerd

[W McSwiggan]

Slightly Different Understanding

HI,

My appreciation of the Red Eagle Order is somewhat different. Specifically, there was a Non-Christian version of this order and was not intended to specifically single out those who were Jewish. My understanding is that the design for the award used insignia that was not a cross and this was done in order to spare non-Christian recipients offense. Remember that Imperial Germany had relations with countries where the principal religion was other than Christian. In the later stages of the Empire, Turkey stands out as a noteworthy example.

I agree that many German Jews and perhaps others returned these awards for standard insignia for many reasons to include potential for abuse. I do not agree and my reading of statutary translations makes no suggestion that this was intended as an inferior award.

wem