Convex EK's - construction question

[Biro]

I know nothing about convex EK's...I've never owned one, so I have a question regarding their construction.

If two EK's share the identical obverse core details (such as the two Godets' below) but one is flat, the other vaulted.......were they (the cores at least) made using a different die, a different process,....or are they just 'maliable' straight after casting....sorry, but I honestly don't know

I'm posting this here because I'm referring more to Imperial production methods rather than anything that may apply to T/R era....

thanks guys....

Marshall


courtesy C Ortelli & GStimson

[Egret]

Vaulting

Hello,
I’ll throw this your way because I always thought it was so weird. I have a 1939 EK1 (my only EK1) marked 20 on the underside of the pin. I bought it from Weitze 5 years ago. It had been “de-nazified”. The Swastika had been ground off carefully, but the effort left a swastika shaped opening into a hollow core. The badge is vaulted, but knowing it is hollow it can be seen the front is more convex than the back is concave. I am sure this was intentional construction as all other soldering is intact. The empty space in the middle must be 1.5 or 2 mm deep in the center. I am no expert, but it seems unlikely someone would go to the effort to build this badge post WW2 and then grind it apart. The other weird thing is the Swastika shaped opening is absolutely “perfect” in shape, implying the emblem was itself another piece. I understand most EK1s are three pieces not counting the pin and hook. This one must have been four.
Chris “Egret”
New Hampshire

[gregM]

Hi Marshall,
Good question.---I own a few vaulted EK1s. The fit and finish are great. I have
seen EKs that have been vaulted after production and the seams looked like they were pulling apart and some of the cores were broken.

Greg

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

My opinion (and that's all it is) is that the same die(s) was used to produce flat and vaulted EK1s. The vaulting was a process applied either to an assembled EK1 or, more likely, to individual components PRIOR to assembly. Here's some of my reasoning;

1) looking over my vaulted EK1s (over 2 dozen) I notice that the iron cores appear to be of the thin sheet metal type (with possibly, only possibly, one or two exceptions) - not the core type I think of as cast iron. This makes a lot of sense as pressed/sheet iron would be a lot more maleable than cast iron, which is prone to cracking. Of course appearances can be deceptive and my methods for determining the differences in core material are subjective based on the "smoothness" of the finish to the core.

2) specifically looking at one manufacturer, in this case Meybauer for which I have 4 vaulted examples and can make a good comparison (and one uncommon FLAT example!, but all 5 have the same core details), 3 of the examples appear to show the same degree of vaulting but one of them shows a lesser degree of vaulting. This should not be the case if vaulting was imparted from a die - unless you start invoking multiple "vaulted" die theories.

3) the mother/master - daughter die theory (ie that used for coin production) imo can NOT be applied here - the core details may be the same but the vaulting is not, therefore a new die would have to be made from scratch and perfectly reproduce all core characteristics, carved in STEEL and in 3 dimensions (3-D) onto a curved surface. Imo, this is HIGHLY unlikely.

4) if you believe a different set of dies was used to make a vaulted core, then you also need new sets of dies for the beading and the backing plates. So, instead of having 3 sets of dies and vaulting as a process, a company would had to have had 6 sets of dies - uneconomic imo.

Vaulting components soon after manufacture, while they are still fairly maleable, seems viable. Only a simple jig or press would probably have been required and would also have produced fairly consistent results. No damage need have been imparted during this process if hard rubber or leather cushioned one or both of the surfaces. Post assembly finishing would explain why vaulted cross components have extremtly good to near perfect fit - the effects of hand vaulting a finished cross would not be an issue.

Again, these are just my thoughts and opinions.

Regards
Mike K

[Biro]

Thanks Mike...that is extremely informative...

3 of the (Meybauer) examples appear to show the same degree of vaulting but one of them shows a lesser degree of vaulting. This should not be the case if vaulting was imparted from a die

This is most definitely a very good point! It would be interesting to hear from other vaulted Meybauer owners on this....I'm not sure how accurately measureable 'convex-ness' is however.....

My interest lies mainly in trying to learn whether it was technically possible to use the same die for both core types.... but I'm beginning to suspect this is an old conversation...

Egret.....I would very much like to see some good pictures of your 'De-swazed' Zimmerman, and the 'hole' it left .......if you PM me, I will send you my e-mail for pics.

Does anyone know then, if the cores of convex Imperial crosses are hollow - and/or does anyone have vaulted CAST iron Imperial EK's in their collection?

Also, anyone who can post identical Flat and a Convex examples by the same manufacturer (as above) would be helping me a great deal.

That'll keep you all busy.....

Marshall

[Mike Kenny]

Hi Marshall,

By "old conversation" I assume you mean all those in the know are no longer with us - ie those who actually produced the crosses.

Attached are the only two flat/convex pairs I own which are exact matches. On the top Meybauer, on the bottom WS (the vaulted one is unmarked but I'm 99.99% certain it's a WS). Vaulted on the left and flat on the right.

The vaulted WS is one which possibly has a cast iron core. There is excess solder in between the arms of this particular cross, however there is no separation of the arms or lifting of the inner corners of the beading - ie no indications it has been hand vaulted after being awarded. The finish of the edges is perfect. Imo, this particular cross (which imo is NOT the norm) was probably vaulted post construction/assembly but before final finishing.

Regards
Mike K

[Tom Y]

Here's the core from my "exploded" EKI. From the weight it's definitely solid, and from the details I suspect it's early manufacture.
Note the 8 scratched in the upper arm and the punch mark in the lower. The lower arm is very slightly twisted, a good indication that the vaulting was done after forging.

[Shawn Southern]

Interesting Thread

Interesting thread, guys. I've always thought that it would be especially cool to actually have/have had the opportunity to observe production of some of the T.R. badges of multiple piece construction (and maybe get a little "carry out!"). Anyway...........interesting stuff.