Imperial German Army Organizational question

[PaulChep]

I was wonder if the Imperial German German Army was organized like the America Army. For example, The type Army Infantry company has 5 platoons of about 30 men each, 3 rifle platoons, 1 heavy weapons and 1 Hq. A battalion has 3 companies and a regiment has 3 battalion. A division consists of three regiments. Was the Germany Army organzied like this?

[AOK4]

Hello,

In order to answer the question, one needs to know the exact date on which you need the organization and from which unit.

I can strongly advise you to buy the 'German Army Handbook''Deutsches Heer 1914-1918' by Hermann Cron (I believe this book was translated recently). It's quite an extensive answer.

Jan

[Bob Lembke]

Organization

Paul;

The short answer to your question is: NO

The long answer is indicated by Jan's response. He said: "In order to answer the question, one needs to know the exact date on which you need the organization and from which unit."

In other words, in order to meet the changing needs of the war, the Imperial Army made dramatic changes, not always uniformly over the whole structure at any given point in time. For example, the change from "square" divisions to "triangular" divisions, mostly in mid-1916, turned the Army on its head.

Another response; the structure of the typical Imperial German company was quite different. While the US Army company has tactical sub-units (platoon, squad), the German company had different tactical units, but also administrative sub-units with no direct parallel in the US Army.

I am not familiar with the Cron book, but Jan has such a profound grasp of these topics that I am sure that his advice to buy the 'German Army Handbook''Deutsches Heer 1914-1918' by Hermann Cron is very good advice.

Bob Lembke

[Dave Danner]

BTW, that is not the typical US Army infantry company, at least today (or 1914-1918 for that matter).

Companies do not have HQ platoons; they have HQ sections of, usually, 9 men. Light infantry and airborne companies do not have weapons platoons. Ranger and air assault companies do. Functionally, this does not make much difference, as they all have essentially the same mix of mortars and antitank weapons; they just allocate them differently. Rifle platoons are usually 34 men, but airborne (39) and Ranger (40) are larger. Mortar sections are 6 men and antiarmor sections are 13. Companies have 130-132 men, except that Ranger companies are closer to 150.

On the mech side, companies have a 14-man HQ section and three platoons. There is no weapons platoon as the Bradleys themselves carry 25mm guns and TOWs. When the platoons dismount, the Bradleys can act as a separate base-of-fire element while the dismounts maneuver.

The newest incarnation is the Stryker company. It has an HQ section (14), a Mobile Gun System platoon (9), a three-man sniper team, a mortar section (10) and 3 rifle platoons (45 each).

All of these companies routinely have attached to them medical and fire support teams.

[PaulChep]

Army company or USMC Rifle Company

I guess I should have said that this was the organization of the Marine Corp Rifle Company during the 1984-1986 period. I was an 0331 MOS (if anyone can id this MOS I'll give you a nickle) with Delta Company, 2nd Battalion, 25th Marines, 4th Marine Division. Semper Fi!!!

[Dave Danner]

I was an 0331 MOS (if anyone can id this MOS I'll give you a nickle)

"I wanna be a 60 gunner!"
"Makes the killin' lots more funner!"

[GWA]

"I wanna be a 60 gunner!"
"Makes the killin' lots more funner!"

Ever have to carry one 27 miles? Changes your perspective on the "funner" part.

[joerookery]

Paul,

The Cron book has been reprinted and translated. My review is at http://www.coljs.com/books/impgermarmy.htm If you click on the link there it takes you to the book on Barnes and Noble. It is a $52 book. Not cheap and whie it covers all the changes it never quite sates me. Hope this helps.

[PaulChep]

Give those guys a cigar!

Dave and George got it right! A M60 F????ing Machine Gunner! Pics below don't do me justice but you get the idea.

[PaulChep]

close up

close up

[Dave Danner]

BTW, back to the original question, for at least a basic answer:

The peacetime divisional structure typically had 1 artillery, 1 cavalry and 2 infantry brigades, each of two regiments.

On mobilization in 1914, the typical structure of a division was 2 infantry brigades and an artillery brigade. The two cavalry regiments were allotted to the infantry brigades. The two infantry brigades each had a cavalry regiment and 2 infantry regiments, plus generally a separate Jäger battalion. Each infantry regiment consisted of three infantry battalions (numbered I-III), each of 4 companies (numbered 1-12), plus an MG company with 6 machine guns.

I'm not entirely certain of this, and others can correct me, but I believe the big changes in 1915-16 to what might be called the standard organization were these: the division moved from a square structure (2 brigades of 2 infantry regiments) to a triangular structure. One brigade was eliminated as a separate maneuver unit, but used as a staff element, while the other brigade was withdrawn to form new divisions (or broken up if the division had suffered too many losses). The cavalry was withdrawn and the Jäger battalion was raised to a regiment. This gave the division three regiments of three battalions, with each battalion still having 4 infantry companies. The regiment's MG companies were gone, replaced by a separate MG company in each battalion.

[Bob Lembke]

M-60 and the German Army Organization

Guys;

Dave Danner has given an accurate overview of the changes in the organization of the German Army 1914 to 1918. However, as he suggests, the total picture was really complex. There was constant change and adaptation.

An interesting source is (I am too lazy to pull it, from memory, Bruce Gudmundsson, Storm-troop Tactics.) He traces the incessant evolution of the German units, till in 1918 they hardly had any rifle-men left!

For a bunch of reasons, the Imperial German Army was fertile ground for innovation.

In regard to the other line of discussion, one can only chuckle at the wimps who had to wander about with a M-60. Have you ever gone on an essencially non-stop 3 day ramble with a Browning M1919? With, in addition, a (allegedly) 64 pound pack? Actually, I had only my M-1, but for the last 6 hours, when another guy broke down, I took his M1919 and carried the sucker for the last say 10 miles.

Am I dating myself? (I became an official "Old Fart - senior citizen two hours ago.)

Bob Lembke

[Trossknecht]

Organization of German Infantry Divisions - 1914/1918

Gentlemen,

Those who emphasized the complexity of German divisional organization during World War I are correct. The variety of types and sub-types is considerable. There is, nonetheless, a certain method in the madness.

At the start of the war, the standard German infantry division had a perfectly square organisation, with four infantry regiments and four field artillery battalions (Abteilungen.) This was a handy organization with respect to the internal functioning of the division, for it allowed for the easy formation of combined-arms detachments - reinforced brigades of two infantry regiments and two field artillery battalions and reinforced regiments of one infantry regiment and one field artillery battalion. The chief defect of the organisation was the fact that the infantry regiments were paired-off to form brigades and the field artillery battalions were paired off to form field artillery regiments. This meant that the division commander could only reinforce one brigade by taking elements out of the other.

Most reserve divisions formed at mobilisation had the same infantry structure, but less in the way of field artillery. Thus, the typical reserve division had but two battalions of field artillery. Three - two from Saxony and one from Wurttemberg - had three battalions. (The reason for this was the fact that a large percentage of the reservists trained as field artillerymen were needed to fill the ranks of the hundreds of ammunition columns that were formed upon mobilisation.)

During the first year of the war, the German Army formed four waves of new divisions. The first of these was formed with the surplus men in the depots and the reserve of spare artillery pieces that had been set aside before the war. It was thus well provided with infantry - 12 battalions plus a spare Jaeger battalion in each division - but poorly provided with field artillery. That is, each division had three 12-piece battalions rather than the standard allotment of four 18-piece battalions. The next two series of divisions to be formed had a triangular infantry component but a square field artillery component. That is to say, each had three infantry regiments and four field artillery battalions. The fourth series also had a triangular infantry component, but only two field artillery battalions. (All of the field artillery battalions formed for these divisions had 12 guns or howitzers. That is, they were each made up of three four-piece batteries.)

In the course of the formation of the third and fourth series of new divisions, some of the existing divisions gave up their fourth infantry regiments. Likewise, the formation of the second, third and fourth series of new divisions involved the reduction in the size of many existing field artillery batteries from six guns or howitzers to four guns or howitzers. Not all divisions, however, gave up infantry regiments and field pieces. As a result, the German Army of the summer of 1916 had an enormous variety of divisional structures. This can be seen in organisation of the XIV Reserve Corps at the time. This corps had one division (28 Reserve Division) with three infantry regiments and three field artillery battalions, one division (26 Reserve Division) with four infantry regiments and three field artillery battalions and one division (52 Division) with three infantry regiments and four field artillery battalions!

That's the bad news. The good news is that things got simpler after that. The ideal organizational structure was set at three infantry regiments and three field artillery battalions. As opportunities arose, surplus units were transferred out and missing units were transferred in.

[Dave Danner]

Deviations from the standard structure also existed before the war.

Württemberg and Baden each maintained an active corps (XIII and XIV), but their population bases didn't exactly correspond to these strengths.

In its organization on mobilization, the XIII. Armeekorps had an extra regiment. A corps of two divisions of two infantry brigades should have 8 infantry regiments, but there were 10 Württemberg infantry regiments. So one brigade of the corps had three regiments, while the tenth Württemberg infantry regiment was assigned to another corps entirely.

Baden had nine infantry regiments and the XIV. Armeekorps, primarily Badeners, also had a regiment from the Principality of Hohenzollern, which was a Prussian regiment. These 10 regiments were organized into five brigades, with the 29. Division having three infantry brigades instead of the customary two.

This extra brigade was left over from when the XIV. Armeekorps had three divisions, as when the 39. Division had been moved to the XV. Armeekorps, the 84. Infanterie-Brigade and its two Baden regiments remained with their countrymen. XV. Armeekorps had a standard structure, but the primarily Prussian corps included a sprinkling of non-Prussian units. The aforementioned extra Württemberg infantry regiment was in one of its brigades, while a Saxon infantry regiment was in another. The corps also had Baden's extra field artillery regiment (Baden raised 5 field artillery regiments, but XIV. Armeekorps only had four) and a Jäger battalion from Mecklenburg-Schwerin.

Also, I can't remember the details, but I recall that in 1913, typically two of a corps' standard eight regiments were understrength, having only 8 companies in two battalions (and no MG company). By 1914, these appear to have been raised to full 12+1 company regiments, at least on paper, but I wonder how many of these companies were still understrength.

[Trossknecht]

Organization of German Infantry Divisions - pre-1914

Mismatches between the units belonging to army corps districts (Korpsbezirke) and their affiliated army corps had been a problem from the very founding of the German Empire. At the heart of the difficulty was the different rates of population growth in different parts of the Empire, which caused some corps districts to raise more new units than others.
Every 15 years or so, new corps districts would be formed to accomodate the new units that had been formed in the intervening years. Thus, the peacetime organization of army corps over the five decades in which the Geman Empire existed varied from reasonably regular to highly irregular.
The last of the reorganizations - that of 1912 - was also the most successful, making the 25 army corps more regular than they had been since before the crowning of Wilhelm II in 1888. There were still, however, 17 spare infantry regiments - enough to provide the infantry for two full-strength army corps.
The reorganization of 1912 also provided third infantry battalions to those peacetime regiments that had previously consisted of only two battalions. Thus - with the possible exception of one Bavarian regiment - all of the active regiments that took the field in August of 1914 had three battalions. A number of reserve infantry regiments, however, were mobilised with only two battalions. (A list of these is provided by Herman Cron in his book on the organization of the German Army in WWI.)