Ribbon bar in green

[JensF.]

Daniel, is this bar from the seller you warned me about?

[Daniel Krause]

Hi Jens,

exakt vom selben!

Beste Grüße

Daniel

[mott5ranch]

OK, the back looks OK to me: I think this is just a 1920s "anything goes," strange combination, "cheapo" mixing parts from other bars in something homemade.

YES! That seems like the most logical explaination to me.

I find US medal/ribbon bars ALL THE TIME that are out of order.
I know some US vets who say, "I'll do it my way, by God." These old war birds have different attitudes about alot of things and ribbon rules is not a priority...."it's MY medal/ribbon , I was there and I'll wear 'em as I damn well please".....these are the remarks I've gotten in the past. Some of these old guys get defensive and confrontational. It's kinda like they are out of the service and what are you going to do about it.....it's not a crime to be a stubborn vet with an out of order bar in any country.

If everything looks period made, from original parts as you guys say, could it be possible that the same attitude was found with the German WWI vet? Is it possible?

I wouldn't turn in my medals for anyone (would you?)......"I lost em years ago." I would not turn in my guns either (would you?). . . "I sold em years ago." I think we may be a little too quick to condemn these old ribbon bars. Didn't the Bavarians constantly put their medals ahead of the rest, which means out of order? I think these out of order original parts bars often belonged to the retired vet who did his thing...homemade if you will, as he wanted it.

Some old farts get pretty damn head strong....and cranky, too!

Just my two beers worth.

[Daniel Krause]

Hi,

You write: "Didn't the Bavarians constantly put their medals ahead of the rest, which means out of order?" Of course, they followed their regulations. Imperial Germany was a federation of some dozend semi-independent countries and the Emperor was "the President of the Council of the Princes" (German Imperial Constitution from 1871!) Own Regulations for Orders and medals were existing in Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony, Württemberg, Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Schaumburg-Lippe.

Of course it is possible, that this bar is a homemade bar from a veteran in the 20ies.
I do not beleve that, I have my reasons, Stogie does not believe that, he has his reasons, Rick L. believes that is real, he has his reasons. Who is right????? Maybe we will never really KNOW, but we ASSUME.

Best regards

Daniel

[mott5ranch]

Hi Daniel,
Fair enough, I feel I'm a little involved in this one because I have heard Carl discuss it MANY times. I see his reasons as well as yours. It has been educational for me. Thanks.

I forget where or when I saw it..I think it was here, but someone had a ribbon bar that had two different regions on the same bar. For example, (since I don't remember), one from Saxony and one from Wuttemburg. Much discussion was made about it. Could something like this also exist? What was the rule for dual citizens from these independant states? Could one wear medals from different states together? Was there a rule as to which medal came before another? These old ribbon bars are harder to figure out than Chinese algebra. I don't remember if anyone ever found out about these situations, dual citizens.

[Daniel Krause]

Hi,

there are quite a lot of reasons to have dec´s from different German countries.

- Most possible: the honorary colonel of the Regiment can be a foreign Prince, so he gave also his awards to the members of "his" Regiment
- Germany had more than one armies, the Bavarian Army, the Saxon Army, the Württemberg Army corps and of course the Prussian Army, which includes the smaller contingents of the smaller countries. So if a Prussian served in a Braunschweig Regiment he got also Braunschweig awards or if a Braunschweig Citizen served in the Prussian Army he also got the Prussian awards.
- if a guy fought with his Regiment together side by side with "foreign" troops the Commanders-in-Chief spread also some awards around
- if the Commander of a Army corps joint from different Countries was a Prince he gave his Countries dec´s to all of his troops, not only to this ones from his own country

The order of precedence is a quite difficuld field, different in the Countries, changing over the times. To describe everything needs a lot of space. But wait a bit, the information will come soon.....


Best regards

Daniel

[Rick Research]

It is VERY unusual to ever find a bar with more than THREE different states' awards on it: everybody used the Iron Cross (that's 1), every state had its own awards (that's 2), then, as Daniel says, you get into honorary colonels, divisional combinations, etc (the 3rd)-- for instance, there was ONE division that had troops from Mecklenburg-Schwerin mixed with troops from Saxe-Altenburg, which are nowhere near each other and were never joined in the pre-war army. So if you find a Mecklenburg/Altenburg combination, it is safe to assume this specific division as a reason, and work from there.

There are always wild cards-- Hamburg and Saxe-Meiningen seem to have been unusually generous handing out their awards to people with no immediately apparent "reason."

This bar does seem to have "too many" awards. I am unfamiliar enough with the tiny Thuringian states that were all jumbled in together to be confident of their award practices. Saxony is also outside my experience, so I would defer to specialized knowledge there. As always, the lower the rank, the least likely to be decorated, in any army, at any time.

[Daniel Krause]

Hi Carl,

all of us learned from that bar.

Just my opinion; it is far more interesting to discuss ribbon bars or medal bars AND the connected career of the owner than to chat about a single zinc stickpin like our 3rd reich freaks like to do.

Best regards

Daniel

[stogieman]

snicker, snicker....

you called them third reich freaks, snicker, snicker. Ahhh yes, let us now pontificate on the marvels of goerings secret award of the goering order to his gardner........ hmmmm who'll jump on this thought...... hmmmmm???<br>
snicker, snicker, snicker

[Mike H.]

There is an account in Neal O'Connor's Aviation Awards - Prussia (abbreviated title) that tells of an observer in a Prussian air unit earning the Knight's Cross of the Hohenzollern House Order from Prussia. This same airman, being a subject of the Principality of Waldeck-Pyrmont, also earned, for the same action, the Waldeck Merit Cross, 3rd Class with Swords.

There is also the account of a Bavarian Air Service pilot being transferred to Jasta 28, a Prussian Air Service unit raised by Württemberg. He was awarded several Bavarian decorations, a couple Prussian decorations, and a Württemberg decoration.

The fact that soldiers, especially officers, wore decorations from more than one state is not alarming. The confusion comes in during the 84+ years since: At what point was the bar constructed? Whose rules were being adhered to, if any? What extenuating circumstances allowed pairings that otherwise would never be made?

[Mike H.]

P.S.

I, too, was a 3rd Reich freak - Luftwaffe, specifically. I neither knew much about Imperial Germany, nor was I interested. Little by little - ever so slowly, I would sneak in here and poke around. The more I nosed around, the more I learned - and the more I became enamored with Imperial Germany.

I can't learn enough this topic! There's so much to get into.... I have now but two issues - where to find more outlets for Imperial medals, and how to save up for them.

[stogieman]

Har Har!

We have trapped another! You must sell all your nasty third reich doo-doo to Bill Dienna, only when you have purged yourself can you become one with all things Imperial.......

[Daniel Krause]

Hi,
I´m back with more information about the Saxon KVK.

The Statutes says that it was given for "besondere vaterländische Betätigung" (special patriotic deeds) and "An Personen, die aus Anlaß des gegenwärtigen Krieges eine Königl. Sächs. Kriegsauszeichnung erhalten haben, wird das KVK nicht verliehen; im Falle der späteren Verleihung einer solchen Kriegsauszeichnung ist das KVK an die Ordenskanzlei zurückzugeben." (short: who got a Saxon war dec. in WW1 cannot get it, who will get later one, has to return the KVK)

Minimal 9 monthes were to serve in WW1 to get the KVK.It was given like the Prussian War aid cross from simple soldiers and cilil servants to Generals and Ministers in the REAR area.

The following numbers of awards are known:

- Military recipients: to the 30.09.1918 3933 awards
- Ministery for Internal affairs: to the 01.10.1918 3746 awards
- Minitery for the Treasury: to the 14.08.1918 327 awards
- Ministery for Foreign affairs: to August 1917 18 awards
- Ministery for cultural affairs: to 28.09.1918 657 awards

all together 9406 awards. It is to assume, that to the end of WW1 around 10.000 awards were issued.
(source: OMM magazine 92 2nd Quartal 2000)

Interesting: The Maker of the KVK, Heinrich Schneider in Leipzig made 5000 KVK´s and F.J.Eberlein in Pirna made 5000 statutes for the Orders Chancellary. More official makers are not known. So at least half of the awarded KVK´s were regiven later and issued again.
I´ve seen medal bars and ribbon bars with the KVK and Saxon awards without swords.

Stogie, please post Your ribbon bars with the KVK, it might be interesting.

Best regards

Daniel