1870 time

[Greg S]

Very nice George, the detail of that cross (crown) is excellent. Love the reverse. Doug, they should be ashamed of putting such a cross on eban.

[George Stimson]

Re: the eScum offering, I saw one like it at the Show of Shows in Louisville about four years ago. Non-magnetic, single-piece construction, and the pin was not only mounted horizontally, but the catch opened to the top so it would constantly fall open!

Bill and Greg: Thanks for the compliments on my cross. It is a goodie!

George

[Doug See]

The 1914 EK1 fakes and the 1870 fake on eScam are 3 piece and magnetic, as are most of the fakes of this type. They came out of England a few years back, according to folklore. The frames look pretty good, they are very convincingly aged. Only thing they used to get wrong were the pins and the catches, plus the sloppy fit of the core and frame. If you look at the inside edges of the frame, they are not carefully cut out or timmed.
Here is a fake 1914 in my collection. After I found out it was bogus, I removed some of the artificially created "rust" and silver "patina". When I got it, it was convincingly aged. I've seen 1870's made just like it.



Just for future reference....

[Greg S]

Thanks for the reference, They are coming in all types, sorry for the bogus piece but thanks for posting it.

[mott5ranch]

The fakes posted here seem to come from the same batch or whatever one might call it. The "W" is NOT centered correctly and the crown is also being swallowed by the frame.

[Doug See]

Here's a couple more originals for reference. The left one is marked GODET in a box. The right one is marked RS in a square and 14 Lotig.

[Greg S]

Doug are these fakes? They look pretty good to me.

Good ones for reference, or fakes for reference?

[Doug See]

Greg,
Yes, they're original. Thanks--I edited my comment.

[Dez H]

Hello all

Great thread guys, love the crosses Tim. It does seem to be a common fault with these fake 1870’s that the core is too large for the frames. I am going to go out on a limb here, so please entertain my thinking, are they using larger cores because of making fake Third Reich EK's? However I would have assumed that this would require a completely different core die, UNLESS of course they were using an old original Third Reich die that was made for reproducing Imperial EKs? Although really how many veterans would have required a replacement this late in the game? NONE? There would have been VERY few left alive during the 1930’s. This is the same thinking as with the fake Prussian Pilot’s badges we see, how many of the vets were smashing their badges up to warrant a flood of reproduced awards, very very few indeed. Thoughts? Comments?


Regards

Dez

[Greg S]

Thanks Doug, they looked pretty nice I didn't want to elaborate but I would have fallen for those.

[Doug See]

Dez,
My guess would be that the group making the fakes such as I posted were making 1939's, 1870's and 1914's. They picked a frame type that might pass for all 3. Whoever made the mold for the cores did it the cheap way. The 1870's and the 1914's all have very blocky relief. Very little detail to the crown, which almost looks oriental, to me.

Some of the 1870 fakes by this group have a G on the pin, meant to denote Godet. Luckily, Godet did not mark their 1870's this way. They used the word GODET on the reverse of the cross. I've never seen a real Godet 1870 with a G mark. On 1914 Godet's, YES, but 1870's, no.

Note that on the fake 1914 I posted, there is a 3 on the pin. Again, a dead giveaway that this bunch wasn't too bright. Also, on the back of the pin on my fake 1914, there is a very faint G, right behind where the 3 is on the front. My guess is that the fakers had punches with a 3 for fake 1939 EK1's and G for 1870's and 1914's. I wonder if there are any 1939 fakes out there with a 3 on the pin?

These guys did a pretty good job with fake aging. On mine, there was rust on the core, but it was way too even, as if chemically done. The patina on the frame was good, but in looking at it closely, it was more like carbon deposits than silver oxidation.

[Doug See]

Greg,
In answer to your question about 1870 EK2 maker marks: None of the reference books I'm aware of mention them. But, I have one marked KO and have seen a few for sale with one or two other marks. My KO 1870 EK2 is of very very good quality, better than the 1914 KO's. But, my guess is that it was made in the early 1900's or even during WW! as a replacement piece.

Maybe someone else can add to this.

[Tim C]

Hi All,

I am comfortable with the source of my cross, but as we are here to learn, I had a real close look at the core.
It has shifted slightly up and to the right, by about 0.75 of a mm. The photo certainly makes it look a lot more, maybe the angle.

It is simply marked "800" on the back, sorry Doug, my camera isn't good enough to get a shot of it.

The crown is different to some of the others, and very similar to the e-crap one, to be sure. The hinge is different, and is one of the types I see on Godet and Wagner pieces. The fake posted, and the e-crap one have coke-bottle style pins(and dodgy markes, as Doud says)
So is it a copy? I don't think so, but stranger things have happened. Could be a maker that was used as a template for the copiers?

Personally, I think there was just so many variants even within the same maker to be 100% sure either way, but this is a discussion forum, so let's discuss!

Happy to hear everyones view,

Regards,

Tim