Walter Schott Imperial U-Boat

[Matthew]

You don't have to do anything. This being a hobby I thought you (and others) would enjoy talking about it. By the sound of it you think of it as a tedious work.
You do not think that a period photo to the contrary of widely accepted opinion is a good reason to re-examine the subject?

This being a discussion forum it would be perfect place to ,well, discuss it.
Saying go there, see that man, ask him yourself or even better find out yourself is not the best approach I would think. Believe me when I say I try and research subjects that interest me as much as I can with my limited resources but sometimes two sets of eyes, few more opinions and a tad bigger access to documents makes for a better results

To answer your question- I do not know if the pic was mislabeled, manipulated or otherwise played with to prove a lie but I would think that archives generally go by strict rules as to providing facts. If it is labelled as photoed sometime in 1918 then I would think someone who put that label on it had a good reason to believe it was. Now how do you know the evidence used to 'prove' they were painted at the factory was not wrong?

cheers

Matt

[Brian L.]

To answer your question- I do not know if the pic was mislabeled, manipulated or otherwise played with to prove a lie but I would think that archives generally go by strict rules as to providing facts. If it is labelled as photoed sometime in 1918 then I would think someone who put that label on it had a good reason to believe it was. Now how do you know the evidence used to 'prove' they were painted at the factory was not wrong?

cheers

Matt

I didn't say that some badges were fire-gilded. I suggested it as a possibility. Post-war private purchase badges made in the 30s were gilded.

Let's talk about that photo, then. Could you provide the exact link? While Ullstein Bild is a very reputable news agency and archive for photos, that picture was more likely published in the 30s or 40s and not during WWI. Color photography was hardly in use during the war, except for the very expensive autochrome process used for special "Illustrierte Zeitung" and I doubt it would have been used to document a badge. The other thing is that it could be a colored monochrome photo and quite possibly the result of some artistic license.
Regardless, it's one photograph weighed against all the actual badges that exist with varying degrees of green wash on them - hardly compelling evidence.

[Matthew]

trust nothing that you hear and only half of what you see

If that is indeed a 'hardly compelling evidence' then I have nothing else to add.
You can find the picture on UB under 'submarine war badge'.

cheers

Matt

[90th Light]

I have just recently purchased a complete lot from a family in Germany of a U-Boat sailor who rose fom EM to the rank of senior NCO during WW1.

The "Schott" badge on his combat uniform that he was wearing when the war ended has the factory green painted finish on it but the other "Schott" badge on his parade/ walking out uniform is a beautiful factory fire-gilded example. I have magnified both badges with a high power microscope.

When I am up and posting photos again, I will add some images. As well as his uniforms/ hats including boots, I also have all his paper work including his pay books, service records and award documents.

Also both my "Meybauer" WW1 U-Boat badges have a greenish finish but it is not as prominent as the green on the Schott examples. On one Meybauer the finish is a dark black-green where as on the other Meybauer, it is more of a verdegris-green.

The Schott's have more green on them than the Meybauers but both have green apart from the Schott example on the parade uniform. I wondering when the fire-gilded parade example was purchased or awarded ???

Chris

[Darrell]

.. I wondering when the fire-gilded parade example was purchased or awarded ???

Chris

Maybe an award purchased between wars? Or later?

[Matthew]

schott

My guess would be that whatever abrasive agent was used to burnish the highlights on the badge would eventually give some areas of the badge green hue if not cleaned properly. Another words- the white/grey powder would over time help accelerate the process and turn to verdigris.
Typically they used talcum powder but other mild abrasives were also used.
Die/mold release agent was also likely used although I do not think this is what is visible on this specimen.
On this badge you can clearly see whitish/grey powder spots but also spots of green. That would go against the theory that there were two very distinctive types of Schotts: gilded and finished in green. To some degree this one exhibits both features.

cheers

Matt

[90th Light]

Magnification is the key to this one.

When you magnify a "Schott" with the green, it definetly is some sort of baked finish, paint or lacquer.

Not so sure if this is also the case with "Meybauer" but I will magnify them when I get a chance,

Chris

[Kaleun]

I would say that any sign of "green" is some kind of chemical reaction that has occurred over the last 70+ years - - - the factory finish was always ever to be "gold". Anything else does not make any sense.

Kind regards
Thorsten

[Don D.]

Carsten Baldes discovered a period document during his research for his book on flight badges. It states that the luftship rememberance badge is die stamped and has a green wreath simular to the uboot badge. A translation of this document can be found in Carsten's book, Aircrew Badges and Honor Prizes of the Flying Troops on page 589 I believe. I will check this weekend when I get home.

Gordon Williamson sptted the significance of this statement and published it in an article, Walter Schott and the Imperial Uboot Badge. This article can be found in The Military Advisor.


Walter Schott was a classically trained artist/sculpture. The wreaths on these badges are bound leaves, laurel on the uboot badge and laurel and oak on the lufshiffer badge. The leaves are symbolic for victory and strength and have been used since classical times. It makes sense that a classically trained artist would want them to be green, hence the lacquer. Ever notice that the majority of vertigris is always found on the obverse?

At some point they quit putting the lacquer on the uboot badge. Perhaps it has to do with the Navy's proclivity to shine any brass item they come into contact with. I don't know.

There you go in a nut shell. Period documentation referencing a green wreath. Take it or leave it.

[Norm F]

Here is a color period picture of unissued Schott badge taken in 1918.

Picture credit: Ullstein Bild

Hi Guys,

I just noticed this thread and thought I'd append a comment to say that the photo from Ullstein Bild was not taken in 1918 despite the impression given by their choice of wording. They use a different wording for truly dated photos in their collection. The badge is indeed ca 1918 but that full-colour photo obviously isn't.

And as to the combination of green and white residue on that photo, I believe the white residue is polishing paste used by someone to clean the badge before photographing.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Matthew]

When I stumbled upon this photo I emailed to ask if 'date picture taken' signified the era the pic is thought to be from or the actual date the pic was taken. While I do not remember the lady's name that emailed me back I do remember her saying it signifies the actual date the picture was taken.
When you say 'the badge is circa 1918 but the picture obviously is not' sounds like you have more info about this pic than Ullstein decided to divulge.
By all means, do share.

cheers

Matt

[Norm F]

Hi Matt,

Although there were some rare technologies for producing colour images of sorts in the early 1900's they were not widely available and unlikely to be used in WW1 Germany to photograph a U-Boat badge. But that aside, here are some more photos from the Ullstein Bild database with the same stated credit as the Imperial U-Boat badge, namely "Ullstein Bild - V. A. Behr", which illustrate the problem.

First, the S-Boat with diamonds. The date/period photographed is stated as "01.01.1941 - 31.12.1941" but the 2nd pattern S-Boat design wasn't introduced until January 28, 1943. Prior to that date was the quite different 1st pattern S-Boat design. The first officer to receive the S-Boat with diamonds was Kapitänleutnant Werner Töniges who didn't meet the requirements until November 13, 1942.

Second, the U-Boat clasp (in zinc). Again, the date/period photographed is stated as "01.01.1941 - 31.12.1941" but the U-Boat clasp wasn't instituted until May 15, 1944.

Perhaps the dates provided were just estimates from one of their archivists, but in fact I suspect the photos were post-WW2 given the wear on these two examples.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

In contrast, here is another photo from the Ullstein Bild archive which gives much better detail including the year, the name of the photographer and the city, identifying it as "vintage property of ullstein bild". So when they have such details they provide them. This is the very photograph that was printed in Uniformen-Markt on December 1, 1939 with the announcement of the final design for the WW2 U-Boat badge.

Best regards,
---Norm