von Richtofen's medals?

[Brian S]

I see these three but what's the fourth?

[W McSwiggan]

That would be the Military Merit Cross, 3<SUP>rd</SUP> Class with War Decoration - Austro-Hungarian Empire or the last shown on the "Big Rack".

[Brian S]

Per O’Connor (again) – page 373 of volume 6 shows the Baron, on convalescent leave, at home with his brother. He is shown wearing a massive rack – not a clear picture but at least nine to my eye… Frankly, the ol’ boy looked a bit strange with the rack running from collar bone to collar bone!

Not ruling out anything. Perhaps even his mother had his various awards mounted into a gigantic bar. And if mutti said wear this for a photo I have no doubt he would have obliged her. His room at his mother's had his victory cups and other of his flight items. And certainly more than one bar is not out of the question. I do think the other guys would have snickered had he appeared with the above panopoly not to mention he was not known as a braggert but was understated.

[Rick Research]

.

[Daniel Cole]

COncerning the Bavarian Military Merit Order, when I made my bar I had heard the third class was wrong. I used the picture of his original funeral ordenkissen as a model, hence the crown and swords. Perhaps it is incorrect. I was using the photo in the "von Richthofen and his Flying Circus" book by Noworra & Brown as the reference.

I think MvR's original spange was as pictured. I think the only medal not mounted was the Red Eagle 3 with crown and swords. I think this because he received it in April 1918. He would have only had a few days to have it mounted.

The photo of him and Lothar at home clearly shows him with this massive rack.

[Brian S]

Yes Rick, don't forget they had until I think 1925 to put together the bar for the funeral procession in Berlin after his body was disinterred in France.

[Daniel Cole]

If the funeral procession bar was made in the 20's for his reinternment in the Invalden Friedhof in Berlin, then why would they not have mounted the RAO in the group in its proper place? I believe the funeral medals were his originals, from the family (both his brother Bolko and Frau von Richthofen were still alive) and they never mounted the RAO.

I also think the originals are in Moscow, although I certainly have no proof other than the russians sacked the family home. Pure speculation on my part.

[W McSwiggan]

Thanks

Clearly we have much to learn about the source of the decorations in the original state funeral photos and it is great fun to speculate. My experience with government funerals (which is greater than I'd wish) is that the family is not troubled to provide the decorations for presentation. In the case of period photographs, I've seen as many displays in obvious error as correct and this fact only deepens the mystery. Clearly, many used the originals, which I suspect were gathered from the departed's quarters. Others include impossible items which could not have been owned by the deceased. The mounting order information provided by Rick was of greatest interest to me. Thanks Rick for your insights. To all the other posters, thanks for a great conversation, hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

Cheers, wem

[Brian S]

...but it often came down to the wearer's own private, individual assessment not only of what looked best where, but what he LIKED best, and VALUED most. Oldenburg, with it's ugly black painted iron FA Cross, for instance, is often way back in groups because it LOOKED the crappiest.

...or chose not to wear at all. Here's a general's medalbar and some of the medals he chose not to include. After winning the PlM he really wore this only rarely.

[Ludwig]

Just out of personal interest, I put this to the top.
Perhaps someone has something to add?

[W McSwiggan]

Being argumentative by nature I’d like to suggest several things.
First – the early 20<SUP>th</SUP> century was not the early 21<SUP>st</SUP>. There is ample photographic evidence of German military personnel wearing all of their entitlements. This is not surprizing to me especially considering the militaristic aristocratic nature of the German officer corps (I’m not being critical of them).
Even commoners seemed to behave this way – note well known photos of common born individuals such as Max Ritter von Müller with his most impressive rack. Note also photos of the low born Max Immelmann – again wearing all the bling he had.
The photo of the good Baron noted here as evidence of his modesty does not prove the point. He was not being tastefully modest – rather he is wearing his entire entitlement as of the time of the photo taken while still a Leutnant almost immediately after receiving the Orden pour le Merite.
By his own hand he wrote how pleased he was with the Red Eagle 3<SUP>rd</SUP> class with crown & swords. This has nothing to do with being a braggart – I submit he just liked his stuff!
In those years being military was a big social issue and military success was equally important.
That seems to be the ethic of the times and we should be careful when we try to judge it in the light of another day.

Whether awarded all these awards or not, he would NOT have had a single bar with all of them affixed IMHO. It's too garrish. Although nice to have, I'm sure he would have worn only the top medals. Remember, with the PlM the others are highly irrelevant. But I could be wrong. He was only 25 so maybe he had them all mounted.

Consider this one. Just a discrete assortment of his own awards on his dress uniform.

Looks like the PlM to me in the photo. Dates this after 12.01.1917. Killed April 20, 1918 only four months after this photo's earliest possible date.

IMHO, he never wore all these decorations. They were treasured no doubt by him, but not worn.

[Steve Sherlock]

Does anyone know if the Baron was wearing any of his medals when he was shot down and killed?

If so, do we know where they are?

Steve

[Scott Powell]

werec w

Does anyone know if the Baron was wearing any of his medals when he was shot down and killed?

If so, do we know where they are?

Steve

he wasnt even wearing a uniform per se. he had silk pajamas underneath his flight suit,no medals worn.
quite unlike Werner Voss who was shot down wearing his PLM. the english soldiers who buried Voss referred to it as a 'Boelcke Cravat"

[Steve Sherlock]

werec w

he wasnt even wearing a uniform per se. he had silk pajamas underneath his flight suit,no medals worn.
quite unlike Werner Voss who was shot down wearing his PLM. the english soldiers who buried Voss referred to it as a 'Boelcke Cravat"

Silk pajamas? Hmmm, sounds like something a baron would do.

Thanks, Scott, for the information.

Steve

[streptile]

Finally Project Completed: Manfred von Richthofen Ordenskissen

This was up recently and may be of interest.