Inscribed Godet EK1 w/ fangs

[Stepdale]

Don't know what else to say other than I've had it for 13 years now and the patina for the engraving and the cross itslf hasn't changed since then nor have I ever cleaned it other than a light brushing. I have kept the cross in a shoebox in the original cloth-lined leather pouch it was in when I found it at the theater, so maybe that has helped preserve it, but still no way to say it wasn't done sometime after the war.

I can agree on the vet or a family member having it done postwar, but I'd have a hard time believing it was done by someone to enhance the value as I would think they would choose either a well known recipient or at least a "sexier" unit than an army corps.

[greg1878]

Very nice Cross Dale
Best - Greg

[Kraal]

I can agree on the vet or a family member having it done postwar, but I'd have a hard time believing it was done by someone to enhance the value as I would think they would choose either a well known recipient or at least a "sexier" unit than an army corps.

But that's it- choosing a "no name" guy is easier to believe and doesn't stink that much than a well known soldier or one of a special force like flightcorps.. and a Oberstleutnat of the army corps is nothing to sniff at either IMHO..

[Montgomery Burns]

Don't know what else to say other than I've had it for 13 years now and the patina for the engraving and the cross itslf hasn't changed since then nor have I ever cleaned it other than a light brushing. I have kept the cross in a shoebox in the original cloth-lined leather pouch it was in when I found it at the theater, so maybe that has helped preserve it, but still no way to say it wasn't done sometime after the war.

I can agree on the vet or a family member having it done postwar, but I'd have a hard time believing it was done by someone to enhance the value as I would think they would choose either a well known recipient or at least a "sexier" unit than an army corps.

KRAAL is right ....

about the patina to ,,,

show you the 3 stages of patina and engravings with 3 examples of early 1900 silver coins I have .

first was cleaned ( silver dipped ?) ,second developing the patina ,3 is fully covered .
see how the engraving follows the process of the coins they're on .

[Montgomery Burns]

number 2 and 3

[Montgomery Burns]

same with stamps
800 the content your cross would be

[Montgomery Burns]

only chance you have is that the cross was cleaned at one time and the cleaning substance stayed in the engravings and protected it from newly forming patina


but the Godet mark should show the same thing of protection in such a case

it dos not

sadly that is making the engraving questionable
beside the rough style .

but still a wonderful cross,,,,,,,,, no doubt

And in the end ,,,,what you believe ,,,,,is just as good as someone else's believes











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[Stepdale]

I don't dispute anything that any of you are saying as I have no expertise on engraving, but here is what I think after doing a bit of googling about the subject.
- I believe the engraving is for an Oberleutnant, not Oberstleutnant, and an Armeekorp is not an exciting unit, so it was defintiely not an attempt to spruce it up. It may have been an attempt to enhance the cross by using a more anonymous, less sexy rank and unit, but I rather believe it was at least done by the original recipient, a member of his family, or maybe even done by someone in his unit (or they contracted the engraving out to a private individual or business) prior to presentation. It could have been done during the war or afterward, I can't say.
- I have had the cross in my possession for almost 13 years, so I am 100% sure the engraving was done before that time. The maker maker on the pin has always had the same dark patina since I got it, though it may have darkened slightly since I first got it. Yet the engraving has not developed any patina at all since I've had it - the lines have always had the same dark brass/gold like hue to them. If the surface of the lines were just simply the same silver content metal as the reverse of the cross (i.e., the entire frame is .800 silver, not simply silver plated or washed), it should have developed some patina over 13 years, but it has not changed. The rest of the surface of the cross has darkened slightly over the 13 years I have had it, but just like on the pin it has been so slight as to be almost unnoticeable.
- I am 95+% positive that this cross sat in that jewelry drawer in that theater since at least the mid-70s when the theater closed. So I believe the engraving would have to have been done at least before then, yet it still hasn't developed any patina in the engraved lines.
- I did an hour of google research on engraving techniques. Not knowing the proper terminology, it wasn't a complete success, but I did find some info on gold inlay that, though not the exact same process as what I believe was done on this cross, did help. There is an engraving process that puts a film/wash of whatever material you choose (gold is definitely one of them), though I couldn't nail down an exact term for the process so I couldn't find more info. I believe this cross was very finely hand engraved and then a gold wash was applied in the lines to make them stand out, and since it's probably 24k gold it hasn't developed a patina. I could be wrong on the material of the wash, but it's definitely something deifferent from the silver of the cross frame itself. I can see this in hand with a 10x scope, but I don't have the photography or scanning skills to show it here.

I'll try to take the cross to an old time coin/jewelry pawn shop owner I know and see what he says. He doesn't specialize in German militaria, but he's dealt with enough medals, badges, coins and jewelry of all types for so long he has a lot of info. I'll also take it to my wife's jewelry engraver, who not only does good work himself ( at least according to my wife), he is a student of antique/vintage engraving techniques, especially for the late 1800s to mid 1900s time frame. It may take a couple of months to get this done, but they should be able to give me some more info that I'll try to post here.
Thanks to all for their input so far,
Dale

[Kraal]

Yeah, do this! We don't want to spoil your happyness about the cross

And of course you are right, it's "just" an Oberleutnant and not an Oberstleutnant, made a memory mistake during writing. Still, an officers cross of the army corps is my personal favourite.. high enough in rank to command and have influence on the war, low enough to see the battlefield and fight among the troops.. if i had the choice- officer rank of the infantry.. they have seen war, they fought man to man, they led.. not like those snobs from the navy or especially the airforce

[streptile]

As I said, I am no engraving expert, but I like this example just fine. Just a gut feeling. I know from experience that (amateur) photography does strange things to patina in engravings, so we may not really be seeing the truth here.

[Don D.]

It would be nice to have this one in hand or to have Kay-type photos of the engraving.

[Lance]

Wow! I love the acquisition story too. With the engraving, I don't see a red flag in the pics, outside of the grammar and abbreviations (which I haven't a clue about). It looks like a well done job by an amateur. One tip I could add: take a loupe and examine the engraved areas. Look at the scratches around the lettering and find ones that pass through the engraved zone. If the scratch pushes metal into the letter, it has occured post engraving. With the engraving that does that to a scratch, the wear is pre engraving. This could help place the engraving's time relative to the cross's wear.

[Stepdale]

I looked with a loupe and it's easy to see where the inscription was done by hand with a very fine tool. It may have been done in a rather plain style by someone that wasn't an expert, but the actual engraving itself is not too sloppy so they had some experience. The striation lines are diagonal, so the tool was punched in at an angle rather than perpendicular to the surface.

Not many of the fine surface scratches that show up in the loupe intersect the letters, but of the five I could find that did, two pushed metal into the letter and three didn't, so not sure what that means in terms of dating.

With the loupe I can also see where there is a very thin rine where the original surface patina is. But everything below that rine is a golden color and it looks like a very fine gold wash. There appears to be a few very small spots where that wash has disappeared, and these spots appear to darkly tarnished silver just like the original wash to the reverse of the cross's frame.

I've edited a few of my original photos taken in both indirect and direct sunlight to try to better show the contrast in color between the silver and the gold colored lines. Please disregard the funky colors reflected from the silver surface as those are reflections of me and my clothes. I'll post four shots, but this will probably be the best I can do until I can get someone to look at it in hand or find someone that can do a better job at photographing it.
Dale

[Stepdale]

a

[Rich G]

I would have thought Oberleutnant would be abbreviated as Obltn not Oberlt as in this case? Any thoughts on that?

Rich