Sturm Bataillon 16 EKII document

[Brian L.]

I posted this on GMIC and wanted to also share this rather unique Sturm-Truppen EKII award document on WAF.

[Don D.]

Very nice.

[peterm]

Very nice.

I totally agree with Don!

Kind regards, Peter

[IchHattEinenKameraden]

I love those skull and "bones"!

[gregM]

Very cool.

[Brian L.]

Thanks for the comments.

I may be selling this in the near future, gentlemen, just to let you know.

I just want to live with it a while longer.

[Brian L.]

Just as an update, for everyone's information, this document has been deemed a well-done (and therefore dangerous) FAKE by the powers-that-be at Feldgrau.

As a side-bar, some people there have alluded to me actually being the faker of this document. I suppose, in a way, I should be flattered that someone thinks I have this kind of talent to almost convincingly re-create a period document, written in a language in which I am far from fluent, not to mention all the rules with which one would have to be familiar, in the usage of old German.

I acquired this and a couple of other documents in a collection a few years ago from the same source. So, I got stung. It's fortunate that I didn't pass them onto others.

I have asked Chris Boonzaier if he'd like to add it to his fake documents section on his website so that others than can learn from my mistakes.

[Chip M]

Brian,

You're doing the right thing. It's an incredibly done document. So much work involved. I think you did get a jump-to-conclusion judgement on the Feldgrau Forum. I think the guy who made the assertions was doing so (apparently) based on the changes that you made in the Ebay offering. I guess he thought you were trying to hedge your bets by adding the caveat.

Anyway, these things happen to all of us. It's just to bad when it is an expensive lesson. There's a special place in hell for guys that make these sorts of things.

Best regards,
Chip

[Valter Gorenc]

Brian, I'm sorry you got burned on this one. But I reallly appreciate you shared this information. That's a true gentlemen's collector-to-collector spirit.

Regarding the fake document, is it a fantasy piece or is it faked to match, or resemble some known original?

[Brian L.]

Brian, I'm sorry you got burned on this one. But I reallly appreciate you shared this information. That's a true gentlemen's collector-to-collector spirit.

Regarding the fake document, is it a fantasy piece or is it faked to match, or resemble some known original?

I don't know if the design is a fantasy or based on something real. I teach graphic design and typography. But, looking at this, it even fooled me. It's quite creative. There's even a tiny artist's signature between the grenades and the skull. I've looped the signature and the hand lettering and it looks so genuine, even magnified. There's a lot of attention to detail.

High Resolution typefaces such as those used here require expensive licencing (100-200 Euros). I suppose someone could get a pirated version somewhere. But, honestly they'd have to be German or at least speak German well to know how to use them properly. There are a lot of rules in old German font usage, like which "S" to use where.

Someone is only going to put this much work into a document that's rare and valuable. Otherwise, there's no return on the time and cost.

I'm going to try to contact the original seller. But, it's made somewhat convoluted by the fact that I didn't buy them directly, but through an acquaintance in Germany (who by the way, I can't seem to contact).

It does make me wonder what other "bombs" I have sleeping in my collection.

I've had a few incidents like this lately which are mostly purchases made when I first got back into collecting in 2010 after an absence of 16 years and didn't know the level and quality of fakery going on. I've learned a lot here and on GMIC from others. So, hopefully, I can avoid being stung in the future.

But, I do feel like a real idiot because I still thought of myself as a somewhat seasoned collector.

[Brian L.]

Brian,

You're doing the right thing. It's an incredibly done document. So much work involved. I think you did get a jump-to-conclusion judgement on the Feldgrau Forum. I think the guy who made the assertions was doing so (apparently) based on the changes that you made in the Ebay offering. I guess he thought you were trying to hedge your bets by adding the caveat.

Anyway, these things happen to all of us. It's just to bad when it is an expensive lesson. There's a special place in hell for guys that make these sorts of things.

Best regards,
Chip

Chip

At the point I put the caveat, the discussion was not 100% conclusive. I actually did it as a warning so that someone would look carefully at the document. I certainly wasn't trying to hedge my bets at all.

I paid 300 Euros for this. So, I got stung badly. I don't want to mention the original dealer because firstly, he's someone well-known and I don't want to get into some sort of war. Secondly, as I mentioned in the previous post, I didn't buy them directly, which creates extenuating circumstances of sorts.

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

I've seen this discussion just now.

Looking at the enlargement of the skull-crossed handgrenades, it seems quite visible the effect of an ink-jet printer. In other words, the edges of the motif are not as sharp as we should expect from something that in those days was printed at least with a thick, zinc photoetched plate, that should also have left a pressure-imprint in the paper, visible on the reverse too.

Documents were also printed as a litography: also in that case the design should have had a different appearance.

I think I remember that barbed-wire frame, in one of the many Dover books with copyright-free frames and ornaments... in my opinion, both the inner and the outer ones are so identical in the tiniest detail, that it becomes clear a work of electronic resize.

It's a pity that some "creative" people would use their time and skills for such jobs...

E.L.

[Brian L.]

Hello,

I've seen this discussion just now.

Looking at the enlargement of the skull-crossed handgrenades, it seems quite visible the effect of an ink-jet printer. In other words, the edges of the motif are not as sharp as we should expect from something that in those days was printed at least with a thick, zinc photoetched plate, that should also have left a pressure-imprint in the paper, visible on the reverse too.

Documents were also printed as a litography: also in that case the design should have had a different appearance.

I think I remember that barbed-wire frame, in one of the many Dover books with copyright-free frames and ornaments... in my opinion, both the inner and the outer ones are so identical in the tiniest detail, that it becomes clear a work of electronic resize.

It's a pity that some "creative" people would use their time and skills for such jobs...

E.L.

Elmar

I grew up in the print business as my father was a designer, typographer and calligrapher all his adult life. During the war, he even designed and printed the squadron newspaper, RECCE FLASH (400 Squadron, RCAF).

I inherited my father's profession and am currently an adjunct university professor teaching graphic design and multimedia. So, I feel particularly stupid at being fooled like this. But, it's likely because I wasn't really looking for red flags when I bought the docs, because repro documents even now a generally not common. When I look at the doc closely now, I can see some digital markers, so to speak.

I'm not sure I agree with your evaluation totally, however. By world war I they had offset lithography from metal plate which could have printed something like the skull in minute detail. Yet offset lithography is not as sharp as typesetting, which could easily explain the slight lack of sharpness. A lot of genuine documents are quite badly printed and not that sharp, even if typeset. More often than not, they were printed on small table top platen presses, not noted for quality printing. Or, they used an alcohol ink transfer process much like the Gestetner copies we used to get in school in the 50s and 60s.

Actually, what gives this away for me now is none of that, but just that the whole thing is over the top in terms of design. Somebody really went to town with all the bangs and whistles to make this document attract the collector.

I long ago stopped collecting Imperial German material and am sticking with Freikorps, where I have better luck. Although, even there I've been stung a couple of times. Sometimes I think about just not collecting anymore. It's becoming increasingly risky and costly and not so much fun anymore.

I have begun the process of trying to return the document and recover my money. After more than 2 years, it may be difficult. But, it's worth a shot.

[METZ]

Hi Brian,

... As a side-bar, some people there have alluded to me actually being the faker of this document. ...

I think you have misunderstood something, nobody in feldgrau-forum.de said that you are the faker!!!
We just said: there is a collector who sells some dubious items and documents (via Ebay & web-forums).
After we take a closer look at the Sturm-Btl. Nr.16 document, we are sure this document is a fake! (after that, we checked some other docs).
Then we asked you: where did you get this Sturm-Btl. document and you answered: you bought all document in the year 2011 from a german dealer.
We said, we are sorry about and gave you the advice, to check the documents again by an expert and that you have to contact the dealer!
I live in Germany, and if you like - I can contact the dealer for you!?
Best regards,
Jens

[Brian L.]

Hi Brian,

I think you have misunderstood something, nobody in feldgrau-forum.de said that you are the faker!!!
We just said: there is a collector who sells some dubious items and documents (via Ebay & web-forums).
After we take a closer look at the Sturm-Btl. Nr.16 document, we are sure this document is a fake! (after that, we checked some other docs).
Then we asked you: where did you get this Sturm-Btl. document and you answered: you bought all document in the year 2011 from a german dealer.
We said, we are sorry about and gave you the advice, to check the documents again by an expert and that you have to contact the dealer!
I live in Germany, and if you like - I can contact the dealer for you!?
Best regards,
Jens

Thank you for your kind offer. I am in the process of trying to sort it out myself.

Perhaps my German isn't that good sometimes, so I misunderstood.

However, it is true that initially I was being attacked in quite a nasty way, so much so, that two people who are acquainted with me came to my defence.

I also received an email yesterday from a friend in Berlin who expressed concern at my being "Publicly Assassinated" on Feldgrau.

I've never seen anything like that happen on either GMIC or WAF and it left me with a rather bad impression of the Feldgrau community.

It's perfectly acceptable for the document to have been called into question. I am happy that I was made aware of the issues. What wasn't acceptable was my being referred to a someone selling "dubious items on eBay" and that because I am in Thailand, it would be hard to contact me, implying that my location somehow made it easy for me to get away with selling bad items. This has resulted already in problems for me in selling other items that I know to be genuine.

There are so many out and out crooks on eBay who get away with selling the worst garbage. Most of them come from Germany, I might add. In contrast, I had, up until this incident a solid reputation for selling quality items and being completely honest with people. The people at Feldgrau have hurt my reputation and I am not too pleased about it.