Big whopping fake

[Les]

A whole lotta fakin' goin' on

[QUOTE=Brian S]I've heard the Udet story. It's only one guy and are we sure this happened or is it an Urban Udet Legend?

Brian, Udet's autobiography relates that when he was on leave in Munich, he was told that he'd been awarded the PLM. At the time he was dating his future wife, Lola, and seems he was trying to impress her... He crossed paths with a Naval officer wearing one, and asked him where he got it. He was directed to the jeweler's location. From the story, it sounds as if he was near the royal (Bavarian) palace. The jeweler's name is not specified, but it might have been Hammerle. If it was Hammerle, we don't know if they acquired a PLM from elsewhere, or made their own.

The Kaiser patronized -three- jewelers that were "court appointed." Any award pieces would have been made by one of those jewelers, and one has to wonder how much wear was inflicted on the original dies (same set or more than one?) over the course of the war years. How much variation among awarded PLM's should there be? Dunno...but my hunch is there shouldn't be that much when comparing a Godet to a Godet, a Wagner to a Wagner, usw.

"Wearing copies"? Brian, I'm as sceptical of "wearing copies" as you are. Most officers under the rank of Major probably had very little cash to buy a "wearing copy". If they bought one, it probably came from the same jeweler(s) that Wilhelm bought his. Did these jewelers made and sell "seconds" or less than their best possible quality they could? Would Ferrari sell you a Volkswagen quality auto? I doubt it, and it wouldn't be good sales "PR."

The PLM was awarded by Willy, the head of the Order. Technically, the PLM or other Prussian orders could be recalled, and the bearer asked to return them to the Zeughaus, IRC. The Urkunde for an award, particularly in WWII, allowed the bearer of the document to obtain a duplicate if the original was lost or damaged. Was the same thing possible with the PLM during the Imperial era? I suspect so, since possession of the Urkunde was deemed more important than the medal. The award entitled the bearer to a knighthood,...and an monthly gratuity. (I know that from looking at a PLM recipient's official records and I have copies of them.)

Further, note that mid-war when silver gilt medals were stipulated by Royal decree, that it was noted that when the war was over, they could be exchanged for the gold version. This tends to support the idea that medals could be returned for exchange, and therefore why should a relatively poor junior officer (i.e, the young Rommel by way of example) spend scarce cash on an award he could exchange or replace, particularly if he had a silver gilt one that he could turn in for a gold one...come the end of the war? Think about it.

Sorry for being so long with this but IMO, there's quite a few people who are far too desperate to claim that wearing copies were "commonplace." There's far too much money to be made by persuading people that "wearing copies" were "common place" as some dealers claim. There are "Rip-meisters" who will rip you off big time.

Les

[Brian S]

Further, note that mid-war when silver gilt medals were stipulated by Royal decree, that it was noted that when the war was over, they could be exchanged for the gold version. This tends to support the idea that medals could be returned for exchange, and therefore why should a relatively poor junior officer (i.e, the young Rommel by way of example) spend scarce cash on an award he could exchange or replace, particularly if he had a silver gilt one that he could turn in for a gold one...come the end of the war? Think about it.
Les

Good info Les, and I don't have the original document as British bombs destroyed all his papers. But, it's safe to assume there was no Wilhelm to replace the gilt originals and they were not replaced with gold examples as the Kaiser was gone. And although an Urkunde allows the bearer to purchase a replacement, I suspect that the idea was not replacements from your local jeweler. However, if Udet or another general walked into a jeweler's shop and asked, I imagine it highly likely money and a Urkunde talks.

But I'm also skeptical how a jeweler could 'one-off' a PlM with quality at a cost that both jeweler and buyer could feel comfortable with. If he had one lying around he would just sell it to Udet so it had to be made from photos or cast from a buddy's original (would you let a jeweler make a cast from yours?).

And yes, a Wagner and Godet PlM were made in such limited quanitities it's unlikely the dies suffered any degradation. So the examples must surely all be identical for all practical purposes.

I think we're both on the same page here that copies unless documented as apparently Udet's was, they are to be taken with skepticism. And I don't mean $7,000 worth of skepticism.

[Tim Tezer]

See? Something good has come of this. It has sparked a healthy discussion.

I am basically on the same page as Brian, et al., but with a few points to add:

- Private purchase pieces being sold at jewelers was common throughout Europe, including in Germany, but I would agree that demand must have been very small. By the end of WW1 there probably were not more than 450-500 PLM recipients still living, if that. But the possibility that someone would need a private purchase piece did exist. Goering, who was quite the dandy, probably had a number of them, but he was also etraordinarily wealthy. To further support this, there was another thread in this forum that showed a catalog page from a manufacturer circa 1940 with a PLM advertised for sale. I couldn't find that thread, but the photo clearly showed the type of PLM badge made by Godet.

- Speaking of the Godet pieces, they are not only authenticated as having been used during the time period according to evidence provided by Andreas Schulze-Ising (as well as at least one documented piece sold by Detlev Niemann in the last couple of years), they are also known to turn up with marks other than 938. Andreas sold one that was marked 938 which had un unenameled back engraved as a presentation piece from the recipient's fellow officers. That was very definitely a private purchase piece, and it was NOT in 800 silver, but I have seen some marked 800 or just "Silber". Additionally, there was a Godet style piece sold by "Der Rittmeister" in 2001 that was marked "GH" for Gebruder Hemmerle. Taken collectively, this is ample evidence that Godet produced PLMs for private purchase during and after WW1. They apparently also provided them to other jewelers for sale in their shops, as the tooling costs for those jewelers to manufacture them would have been prohibitive for the remote possibility of selling one.

- Rothe is widely believed to have made private purchase examples pre-1945. This may be true, but as they are not a Prussian maker, I believe that all Rothe pieces must be taken with a large grain of salt. I know for a fact that Rothe was still making them in the 1970's. You can talk all you want about light blue enamel vs. dark blue enamel - I don't care. If it has one of the tall, thin Rothe style eagles with the finely cut out tail feathers, it's nothing but a nice copy as far as I'm concerned. Like Brian, I would need to see photographic evidence: a pre-1945 photo of a recipient where the image is clear enough to see a Rothe style piece being worn. I haven't seen one yet.

- Speaking of photographic evidence.... If we assume that any piece marked "800" is by definition a private purchase piece (and I believe that is a correct assumption), then Wagner did indeed make private purchase pieces. Below are some photos of a piece currently in my hands on consignment. It is marked "W" on the lower arm and "800" on the back of the suspension ring. There is only one difference in manufacturing style that differentiates it from a standard issue Wagner piece - the chased crosshatching on the breasts of the eagles. This was not standard, but I have seen at least one other piece with this feature. Other than that, to my eyes it conforms exactly with known issued Wagner pieces such as the one Brian posted above.

[Brian S]

That's an interesting one Tim. I can't find any problems with the enamel from the photos. Can you get a crisp closeup of one of the eagles?

[Daniel Cole]

It might be interesting to document known copies. I don't mean the easy to spot ones, but better, higher end versions that someone might try and pass off as real. Here's mine I've had for years.

[Daniel Cole]

A Rothe style piece

[Daniel Cole]

A genuine Godet that was on Detlevs site sometime ago, I keot a copy of his photo. Hope he doesn't mind. If he does, I'll remove it.

[Brian S]

A genuine Godet that was on Detlevs site sometime ago, I keot a copy of his photo. Hope he doesn't mind. If he does, I'll remove it.

As a note, this is the only type of Godet PlM that Andreas Ising accepts as a Godet type. Also noted that Godet was the Klietmann owned business and rumours abound of PlMs leaving the factory under the Frau's direction. I would assume as these were enamel they might have gotten it wrong, some of the dies might not have survived, etc. But that's a whole different discussion and one that gets me in trouble with management here. Because I wasn't there, I can't say it happened. Weak...

[Tim Tezer]

A good point, Brian. Frau Klietmann was once heard to complain that she couldn't find good workers to do the finishing work to the level of the original pieces. This photo may be an illustrative example of what she meant: definitely a Godet type piece, but the enamel work is really poor. At the best, I would say it is a late-WW2 piece, but might very well be a copy using original Godet dies. (Photo courtesy Der Rittmeister - It should be noted that Ken identified this piece as a copy when he listed it on his site.)




I will see if I can get an even CLOSER shot of the eagles on that Wagner piece.

Tim

[Tim Tezer]

Well, this isn't much of a closer shot, but the white background makes it a little easier to see the eagle. Once again, this is the Wagner marked piece that is stamped "800" on the back of the suspension ring. Although there are some differences from wartime awarded pieces, I believe that it is struck from Wagner's original dies, and is an actual period piece. That means that at least Godet and Wagner were making private purchase pieces during and probably immediately after the war. We still don't know about Friedlander.