Gebruders and Sohns

[Miro O]

New regular buttonbacks

Type 5 - Star Type

As you surely know, it is not "newly discovered" button. We already discussed it before. Despite my previous opinions, I started to lean to the opinion, that it was genuine Godet button from the era 1930 - 1935, i.e. from the times of Godet - Werner and Godet & Sohn A.G. The arguments are as follows:

- Minis used are always Godet type. For example, EK2 1914 is always the most common Godet type. Same with Centenary medal or Pour le Mérite, which are easily identified Godet minis.

- Button is Godet Gothic type, just without lettering. But the six-pointed star is known from many other Godet buttons, namely Regular Type 1 (Ornamental), Low cost Types 1, 4 and 5, as well as from chain Type A, B and C.

- Ribbon ring is Godet type as well (Star type, or Ladder type)

- Ribbons mount is always done in Godet style.

So, if it looks like Godet and smells like Godet - it must be Godet... But how we can be sure that it can not be old Godet & Sohn button from 20s, or for example first Godet & Co button?

The obsevations of minis used are very helpful in this case. It can´t be Godet & Sohn button from 20s, because it was found (and fortunately bought) in combination with Lions Badge 1926 and Hindenburg cross for Widows 1934. Which means it is definitely button from early 30s.

At second we can rule out Godet & Co connection. Already two types of Godet & Co buttons (Type 7 - Popular, Type 8 - Sunburst) were found in early 30s combinations, i. e. with Hungarian and Bulgarian commemorative medals from 1929, but without Hindenburg cross and/or with German commemorative medals forbidden in 1934. Then there is Gorgo Abzeichen, which as we surely know, was issued early in 1932 - on Type 8 Sunburst button.

From the other point of view - Godet & Co., as a new trademark had no reason to hide their Corporate identity behind six pointed star. They needed to show off themselves in the market loudly - and their known buttons really looked as such. On the other hand, Godet - Werner company, with strong word of J. H. Werner, had many reasons to push the sole Godet part of corporate identity to the background, at least to the equal level with the Werner part. This tendency can be seen in advertisements, as well as in invoices. Godet-Werner lettering is always bigger, than Godet& Sohn AG, though it was just about the same company.

Another indirect argument is, that Mushroom Type Godet & Sohn button is mostly seen with post 1934 awards, with Hindenburg cross, Olympia Ehrenzeichen, KVK and others, but only very rarely in pre-1934 combinations (without Hndy, but with Honour Legion medal, or Kyffhäuser), which leaves a lot of production space for "newly discovered" Star Type button.

I know I still didn´t caught this button "with pants down in Godet-Werner shop", but I think it´s time enough to draw some theory. So this was mine.

[Miro O]

Type X - Special

It was not difficult to find timeframe for this button type, as it often comes with a box bearing inscription Godet & Sohn and address of Unter den Linden, either 12 or 53, which means it was produced throughout all 30s and probably to the end of ww2.

I decided to not number this button, because it is not the regular type. In other words, it is not button for wide scale of minis, just for one particular badge - and it is not button completely designed by Godet. This badge (Norddeutscher Lloyd Honour Pin for 25 or 40 years) was produced by many (at least 3) companies, always with the same button design (and different marking). It means it was design ordered by customer (NDL) with the only variability possible - to mark the button with the maker´s name.

There are also some other examples when Godet had to accept button design ordered by customer. Here is another one. Horse shoe button on horse shoe badge of Horse riders club.

[Miro O]

New low cost buttons

This is the field that was so far the least studied and described, so no wonder that it underwent the biggest changes. Differences in this buttons (which I am not always able to purchase, so I must rely on pictures only) are not so big as on regular types, so it took more time - and sometimes even coincidences - to find and describe new types.

TYPE I

The easiest one to describe (but not to catch) is the new "leader" of the low cost chart, Type I with I. GODET inscription, which is probably the oldest Godet button ever (or so far). It has 20 mm diameter (this diameter is the typical feature of oldest low cost and chain buttons) and probably was in use very short time, as it always appears in very good condition. So far I have seen them two (on Prinzen size Crown order with Genfer cross and on combo RAO4 + Coronation medal 1861), which isn´t very helpful in drawing precise production timeframe. So, at least I have something left to do for the next update.

[Miro O]

TYPE III

Type III low cost button "was born" from Type II. For a long time, I considered them to be the one and same type. Only when I suceeded in obtaining both, I noticed the biggest difference: Type II has 20 mm diameter, while Type III is only 16 mm. There are also some differences in lettering (letters on Type III are san serif, on Type II serif, background on Type III is pebbled), but if you want to study and notice these features, you need to purchase these buttons in good condition, which is very difficult. Both were probably used for a long time, so the level of deteriorating the die is sometimes surprisingly high.

Type II (left on photo) probably started shortly after Franco-Prussian war and ended sometimes before 1900 (it was not seen so far with Centenary medal 1897), while Type III (right on photo) started around 1900 and ended well after WW1 (around 1921). For setting the precise time, when these buttons changed, the study of Prinzen EK2 1870 buttons would be very useful. Whether these typical Prussian trifold mounts appear only with 16 mm button Type III, or whether also 20 mm Type II can be seen on them. So the Prinzen freaks can check and chime in anytime.

[Miro O]

TYPE IV

Type IV is for a long time known from chain buttons chart (Type C). But as it rarely appears also on low cost mounts, and (as Trevor showed lately) also on civilian badges, I decided to put it into low cost chart as well. There is a chance that it will be moved between regular buttons in the future. So far it was observed on one regular looking buttonback (PlM mini), but the mini itself was a fake. So for now it stays between low cost types.

[Miro O]

New Chain button

Type B

Another button which was for a long time "hidden" behind very similar Type C. They have the same ornaments, to the smallest detail and nearly identical lettering. But only nearly.

Please look at letter "G". It has oval "back" on Type B, but straight on Type C. Then look at foot of letter "L". On Type C, it has about one half of overall height of the letter, while on Type B the foot is only 1/4 of the overall letter height. The letters on Type C are visibly thicker and closer not only to themselves, but also to circles that border them. There is also another feature which makes difference - Type B button is 1 mm bigger (17 mm) than Type C (16 mm).

Observation of minis used on this Type says, that is was probably button used simultaneously with Type C and offered mainly on high-end chains with lots of enamel and even gold. Sometimes the chain connected with this button looks more like collane than chain itself.

[gregM]

I think this is the first time I have seen the "Godet Berlin" in
script like what is on the horseshoe button.

[Zepenthusiast]

1. Mine RK is from Zimmermann hoard, i. e. precisely stuck in time to February 1945, placing the button at the end of Godet & Co timeline.

2. I have the previous Godet&Co button type with EK2 1939 mini, which means still in production around 1939/40. This fact gives not much space for the next type of button (as on your PlM) to appear in 30s.

3. Of course there is a possibility that two buttons (last and next to last) were used simultaneously, but:

a.) Next to last button was already simultaneous to another (sunburst) type.
b.) Next to last button is the most common type, while last button is the rarest of all regular types. In other words, when you need another die to keep up with production, pieces from that new die should have been seen equally (plus/minus) to the old die. And not old die producing heavily, while new one doing what... Just making Jim and Miro happy?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zepenthusiast View Post
Maybe Zimmerman using an older Gebr Godet die? (Don't want to get off-topic into Gebr Godet-Zimmerman speculation, but much appreciate your analysis/opinion!)

We don´t need to go deep to theories to rule out this option. If it was old die, we should have seen some (if not many) older pieces. Besides of it, letters design of last button is very modern, something completely different to previous two Godet&Co types with fracture lettering, used in 30s.

Plus, don´t forget (as you are the one who should see it), that there is another design feature signalising production timeframe different from previous buttons. It is a design of the button-ribbon ring attachment. All previous button types use small stick to connect button and ribbon ring (apart from a few exceptions seen mainly on civilian badges). The last Godet&Co button has there triangular piece of "blech" as default. It´s a signal of evolution step, not of older or simultaneous production.

Sorry for using seller´s photo to show what I am talking about.

Miro

Hi Miro,

I copied this from the Imperial Minis thread and brought it over just to stimulate a little additional conversation. Not contesting your interpretation at all, by the way, but rather just wondering what we might additionally figure out about how the two Godets of the 1930s-40s were operating and using the buttons.

In particular, with regard to the font used on the Type 9, it really is not at all modern relative to predecessors...in fact I would argue it is a throw-back to the oldest Type 1 and 3 buttons:



What do you think? Interesting that both J. Godet and Sohn and Gebr. Godet stuck to lower case letters for the "odet" after the parent company started doing it in the 20's.

Jim

... Just making Jim and Miro happy?

A very good idea for all awards!!!!

[Miro O]

In particular, with regard to the font used on the Type 9, it really is not at all modern relative to predecessors...in fact I would argue it is a throw-back to the oldest Type 1 and 3 buttons:

It is very selective presentation, where all similarities were highlighted, while all differences were omitted.
So, just for the record:

First Godet&Sohn button
Title: Godet & Sohn
Status: Koniglische Hofjuweliere
Location: Berlin W8
Additional features: ornaments.

Last Gebr. Godet&Co button
Title: Gebr. Godet&Co
Status: Nothing like "LDO Makers" or "Purveyors to the Fuhrer"
Location: Berlin (without W8)
Additional features: none

In fact, all the similarity is (+/-) in BERLIN font and in "G" in Godet. You say throwback, I´d say tribute. Not enough to tear down the wall of this and other arguments, which were in this case (dating the button) presented.

Zooming to the detail never give you the whole picture. But, if we are already zoomed in, just one small notice:

Please note that on Godet&Co button the small caps "odet" are written in sanserif style, while "G" is serif. I consider it quite avantgarde, as even now you only barely find fonts with different serif/nonserif construction for big and small letters.