EKll with noncombatants band - slightly

[Chris Boonzaier]

Why do we still refer to this as a Non-Combatant ribbon?

[VonPeter]

Why do we still refer to this as a Non-Combatant ribbon?

Please elaborate.

/peter

[Chris Boonzaier]

Well, for 1914 it is not technically a non combattant ribbon, as many if not most regular "non combattants" would have recieved a regular black ribbon.

This could better be described as "non military service on the homefront" ribbon.

Best
Chris

[Montgomery Burns]

I think there is an misunderstanding of the non combatant meaning here,

its not only meant for the home front .

the Prussians themselves would never except such a write down ( devaluation ) of the Iron cross .

or the devaluation of the service,,,,,,,, of those who where honoured by it .

sadly most literature about it is in German old style writing ,,and so not available to most here ...

It is programmed that on the English speaking internet historic misunderstanding emerges .

And it remains a difficult and complex subject to explain for those who can read German ,,,

what I do know in short ,,,,the Iron cross stand for much much More than just a uniform and a heroic dead on the battlefield .

in combatant collars or non combatant collars alike .

and not all on the battle field where wearing a uniform .

so far that counted for the 1813 /1870 era ,I cant imagine 1914 would be much different.


to make it easy ,,all German officials involved ,,,,,,,used and kept using the expression of non combatant for at least 144 years.
so ? what else would be historically be correct ?


regards kay













regards kay
.

[saschaw]

its not only meant for the home front

Oh, it's not, on a WW1 Iron Cross?

Please, elaborate who else might have gotten it. Thanks!

[VonPeter]

I think a better name would be "war merit ek ribbon for services in the home front".
But non com is easier to say and it is still correct.

Luckily Hitler fixed this problem for the next generations of crosses.

/peter

[Montgomery Burns]

Oh, it's not, on a WW1 Iron Cross?

Please, elaborate who else might have gotten it. Thanks!

http://www.non-combatants.com/tr%C3%A4ger-gedichte/

Eduard Haber, Mitgl. d. Reichskolonialamtes und Gouv. von Dt. Neuguinea, Iron Cross 20.10.1915 (später am schwarzen Band mit weißer Einfassung -->Doppelverleihung) .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard_Haber.

Haber was born on 1 October 1866 in Mechernich, Germany. After 1884 in Brilon, Eduard Haber studying the Bergfach from 1885 to 1888 at the universities of Freiburg, Aachen and Bonn.

After finishing his studies in 1888, Haber was first the Bergreferendar, and from 1893 an assessor at the Oberbergamt Bonn. After a tour, which led him to Mexico and Peru in 1889, he was and was charged with teaching at the Bergakademie Berlin . In 1896 he traveled on behalf of the Deutsche Bank to Australia and the United States of America. After his return, Haber was S hut (Silesia), appointed to the Deputy Inspector of the hut in 1900 at the lodge Office and in the same year in the Imperial colonial service of Foreign Ministry .

In 1901 his use as mountain official at the governorate was Dar es Salaam in German East Africa. in 1903, Haber, who previously had been appointed in the year to the Governing Council, was appointed as the first speakers of the province and promoted to the Privy Council in 1906. in 1907, Haber became lecturer Council in the Imperial Colonial Office to Berlin and received his appointment to the secret Oberregierungsrat in 1910.

In 1913, Haber was appointed as the Deputy-Governor of German New Guinea (DNG). Due to being granted leave for illness, Governor Albert Hahl departed for Germany on 22 January 1914 and Haber was appointed provisional Governor in Rabaul.

Haber learned of the outbreak of World War I while in Morobe[disambiguation needed]. He returned to Rabaul on 14 August, where he organized armed resistance with a force of about 50 settlers and 250 locals. After the signing of the surrender on 17 September 1914, he had to make an oath of neutrality. Together with 11 other German prisoners of war, he was brought to Sydney on the captured steamer SMS Komet and interned on 29 October at a camp at Holsworthy, New South Wales. On 15 January 1915, together with his secretary, he was deported to San Francisco aboard the Sonoma, from where he finally was allowed to return to the Germany.[1]

In Berlin he continued as the Acting Governor of German New Guinea. On 14 December 1917, Haber was officially appointed Governor, as Hahl was now declared unfit by the Imperial Colonial Secretary, Wilhelm Solf. This meant that Haber was the last Governor of German New Guinea. Both Emperor Wilhelm II and Erich Ludendorff believed that the further setting up of a Governorship during the war was a hasty and badly conceived decision, because the Pacific colony played no further role for Germany.

At peace talks to the C mandates of the League of Nations, Haber was appointed later in May 1919 as a second member of the German delegation. He resigned because of the hopelessness of his work and took over the coal Management Institute in Mecklenburg.

In 1920, Haber was appointed President of Imperial Pay Board. After leaving the Imperial service in 1923 to 1927, he assumed a teaching position at the Bergakademie Clausthal and received an Honorary Professorship in 1924. 1928–45 Haber taught at the University of Tübingen as mandated lecturer for international colonial science and the resource sector. Haber neve had a doctorate, although he often as titled "Dr". His request to be granted an honorary doctorate was rejected and he had to be satisfied in 1936 with a conferred honorary citizenship.[2]

He died on 14 January 1947 at Tübingen. After his death the city honoured him with the naming of a street.






regards kay

[Chris Boonzaier]

Oh, it's not, on a WW1 Iron Cross?

Please, elaborate who else might have gotten it. Thanks!

Oh PLEASE Sascha.... learn to read German and you would know!!

[Chris Boonzaier]

http://www.non-combatants.com/tr%C3%A4ger-gedichte/

Eduard Haber, Mitgl. d. Reichskolonialamtes und Gouv. von Dt. Neuguinea, Iron Cross 20.10.1915 (später am schwarzen Band mit weißer Einfassung -->Doppelverleihung) .

s kay

I am not sure which point you are trying to prove... but you seem to be proving mine ?

[Chris Boonzaier]

I think a better name would be "war merit ek ribbon for services in the home front".
But non com is easier to say and it is still correct.

Luckily Hitler fixed this problem for the next generations of crosses.

/peter

Hi,

it confuses the issue as most non combattant awards were not actually on the homefront and were actually on a black ribbon.

There are still many collectors who think that doctors, medics etc would all have gotten a white ribbon in 14-18 and a doctor with a black ribbon must have earned it under fire, which is simply wrong.

(and lets not forget the black ribboned crosses for military services on the homefront)

IMHO some early books did not distinguish between the definate difference between a white ribboned cross in 1870, and in 1914... and this can has simply been kicked along. We were discussing this on the forum 12 or more years ago, there is no merit to simply sticking to an error as it has become habit.

best
Chris

[saschaw]

Thanks Kay for pointing out a German civilist in the colonies might have received the white ribbon, too. That's something often forgotten about.

Eduard Haber, Mitgl. d. Reichskolonialamtes und Gouv. von Dt. Neuguinea, Iron Cross 20.10.1915 (später am schwarzen Band mit weißer Einfassung -->Doppelverleihung) .

Though, I'd bet he didn't wear two EKs. They usually would receive the black-white ribbon instead of the white-black one.

[Montgomery Burns]

Thanks Kay for pointing out a German civilist in the colonies might have received the white ribbon, too. That's something often forgotten about.

Though, I'd bet he didn't wear two EKs. They usually would receive the black-white ribbon instead of the white-black one.

imagine the bar ,,, ( ein richtiger Leckerbissen )



regards kay

[Chris Boonzaier]

Thanks Kay for pointing out a German civilist in the colonies might have received the white ribbon, too. That's something often forgotten about.

Though, I'd bet he didn't wear two EKs. They usually would receive the black-white ribbon instead of the white-black one.

Hi,

Technically a German diplomat in America in 1914 could have gotten a white ribbon EK, if he somehow provided the right kind of Service.

I dont think there is a way to wear 2 EK2s, even with different ribbons? It is really not "2 awards". I also dont believe it was possible to get it awarded twice, unless by error, which I assume was the case here.

It is not unknown for someone to be awarded the EK2 twice, especially if they were unit hopping. I have an EK document to an officer who was awarded the EK2 twice in 1914, simply because he changed units and the next commander awarded it without knowing he already had it. When he recieved his EKdoc (2 years later) it was without an award date. Also of note, the EK1 only followed a few years later, the "double award" was not counted as if he should have gotten an EK1. So... a double award because the left hand dd not know what the right hand was doing.

In the case of this colonial officer, do we know the technical details? it seems more likely that the latter award was a "correction" as technically it was an operational area and there was fighting (even though not much), so a White ribboned Cross would not technically be correct.

In fact... unless a Colony saw no action, and there was no combat zone... how would it be possible to get a white ribboned cross?

best
Chris

[Montgomery Burns]

Hi,

Technically a German diplomat in America in 1914 could have gotten a white ribbon EK, if he somehow provided the right kind of Service.

I dont think there is a way to wear 2 EK2s, even with different ribbons? It is really not "2 awards". I also dont believe it was possible to get it awarded twice, unless by error, which I assume was the case here.

It is not unknown for someone to be awarded the EK2 twice, especially if they were unit hopping. I have an EK document to an officer who was awarded the EK2 twice in 1914, simply because he changed units and the next commander awarded it without knowing he already had it. When he recieved his EKdoc (2 years later) it was without an award date. Also of note, the EK1 only followed a few years later, the "double award" was not counted as if he should have gotten an EK1. So... a double award because the left hand dd not know what the right hand was doing.

In the case of this colonial officer, do we know the technical details? it seems more likely that the latter award was a "correction" as technically it was an operational area and there was fighting (even though not much), so a White ribboned Cross would not technically be correct.

In fact... unless a Colony saw no action, and there was no combat zone... how would it be possible to get a white ribboned cross?

best
Chris

Chris ,,,in your own words (In the case of this colonial officer, do we know the technical details ? )

Can we have a judgement ( a mistake or so )of this awarding .?

Was he even a officer ?

chanses are high the Iron Crosses have something to do with this ,,:
Haber learned of the outbreak of World War I while in Morobe[disambiguation needed]. He returned to Rabaul on 14 August, where he organized armed resistance with a force of about 50 settlers and 250 locals.

and maybe the rewarding is legal and justified .

maybe even for some of the 50 settlers and locals.

until details come up we should cherish it as a wonderful addition to the possibility's.

worth of deeper research...


regards kay

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi Kay,

one of us is not understanding the other... or both...

1) I use the term colonial officer as a general term for official
2) No doubt he recieved the EK for that...
3) A white ribboned EK would not have been the right award
4) Noone is doubting he got an EK
5) Most likely (if he got a white ribbon) that it was corrected to black
6) For most things like this you cannot wait for details, you have to go find them.
7) Where did the details for his awards come from? Source is everything.

best
Chris