1870 EKII: 9th Bead For Review

[morel5000]

That is another 9th bead you got there...
With these photos always look for the "over and under 8" in the 1870 date which is also easy to spot.

Best regards,
Michel

[soldon]

Michel,
I did notice the under / over 8 figure. but the crown is small in the picture I can't make out the ninth bead. I've read a lot of posts about 1870's EK2's, the common wisdom seems to be - alone a under / over 8 figures doesn't make it a fake, together with large 9th bead then yes. That's how I understand it ! as I say, I can't clearly see the beads. Regards

[morel5000]

For me there are only two types period proven, the type A and Type B.

You can find a nice article from Mike Estelmann about the subject here:
http://www.medalnet.net/Eisernes_Kreuz_1870.htm

Then there is the possible S&L zweitstuck with a very indicative small loop running through the frame.

So you have to make a decision Type A? Type B? S&L? No -> chances are it is fake like the 9th bead, bad crown, Latvian... cast?

I attached the 9th bead date and the type B 1870 which could arguably be an over and under eight.. Note the bizarre 7 of the original. If date matches the crown for A or B and everything seems OK then you check for cast fakes or even fake cast cores, ww1 converted dates etc...

Best regards,
Michel

[morel5000]

Here is the S&L, always a food for discussion , from Trevor's collection:

[morel5000]

As an addition I am sure the last cross you posted is a 9th bead and fake.

[streptile]

As an addition I am sure the last cross you posted is a 9th bead and fake.

Me too Don't waste your money -- every thing on that set is a fake.

[streptile]

Here's my opinion on 1870s. There is only one type of awarded EK2:

• Type A.

There are quite a few legitimate, later replacement EK2s:

• Type B
• AWS
• Possible S&L
• Deumer WWI era
• Prinzens
• ...and even others.

Take this for what it's worth

[soldon]

Michel,
Thanks for the medal.net link, it really was a revelation, the scales have slipped away from my eyes, took me a hour to read through it a couple of times - excellent stuff, packed with relevant information, learnt more there than reading tens of 1870 threads over the past week. I understand now, what Type A & B EK's are, very well worth reading. Gentlemen, I agree the one's I presented are fake. I was wrong about the over and under 8 - they are all fake. I've gained a lot from this thread, again thanks for the help, much appreciated.

[gregM]

Michel,
I did notice the under / over 8 figure. but the crown is small in the picture I can't make out the ninth bead. I've read a lot of posts about 1870's EK2's, the common wisdom seems to be - alone a under / over 8 figures doesn't make it a fake, together with large 9th bead then yes. That's how I understand it ! as I say, I can't clearly see the beads. Regards

Actually it's pretty easy to spot. You can see in the picture that one of the
beads is shiney That's because the 9th bead is larger (and taller) and
the paint will wear off of it before anything else. On a lot of crosses,
the 9th bead glows like a neon sign.

[soldon]

Greg,
Yes, now you've ringed it I can see the large 9th bead. Your eyes are much sharper than mine and probably much better trained at hunting out the fabled 9th bead. If yourself & Michel hadn't taken the trouble to explain things, I doubt whether I've ever hit on the idea myself, pasted it off as a bit of a collectors myth, hope Biro stayed with the thread, perhaps he learnt something as well. A big thanks.

[gregM]

[QUOTE=soldon;5817739]hope Biro stayed with the thread, perhaps he learnt something as well. /QUOTE]


Now that's something I never thought I would read on this forum.

[soldon]

Sorry, I got the wrong name - apologizes to Biro - I meant of course jt327gir

[Montgomery Burns]

For me there are only two types period proven, the type A and Type B.

You can find a nice article from Mike Estelmann about the subject here:
http://www.medalnet.net/Eisernes_Kreuz_1870.htm

Then there is the possible S&L zweitstuck with a very indicative small loop running through the frame.

So you have to make a decision Type A? Type B? S&L? No -> chances are it is fake like the 9th bead, bad crown, Latvian... cast?

I attached the 9th bead date and the type B 1870 which could arguably be an over and under eight.. Note the bizarre 7 of the original. If date matches the crown for A or B and everything seems OK then you check for cast fakes or even fake cast cores, ww1 converted dates etc...

Best regards,
Michel

speaking about Mike estelmann ,one thing is completely overseen here .

the soldering of the shown cross is absolutely done right ,,,What would not be the trade coming with these crosses .

regards kay