Bavarian medal bar with double MVK 2. Klasse!

[McCulloh]

I saw this thread earlier and wanted to avoid comment, but all the things that Stogie wrote resonate with me. I saw this bar on Detlev's site and to quote a man who is long gone "all dealers make mistakes". Detlev ahs made them before-ask me about the impossible/unlikely Austrian bars he had @4 years ago.
Dealers are not omniscient....even if they are the best dealers in the world.

[Klaus O.]

Hi all,

As a feedback from German serious MVO collectors I have received two thumbs up for this bar.

Here are the comments in German:

1st comment:

Zu der Spange würd ich auch sagen dass die passt.
Gerade von den Bayerischen Spangen siehst du
die unmöglichsten Zusammenstellungen.
Da wurde manchmal alles "draufgenietet" was nicht
niet und nagelfest war.

Translation: especially with Bavarian medal bars I have seen all sorts of combinations... they just put everything on the bar. The person who made this comment collects only MVO since years.

2nd comment:

Laut Verordnung vom 10. Nov. 1914 mußte bei Verleihung einer
höheren Ordensklasse das Kreuz der tieferen Klasse nicht mehr abge-
legt und zurück gegeben werden. Nun durften mehrere Klassen
des MVO´s und MVK´s nebebeinander getragen werden - wenn
sie in verschiedenen Feldzügen erworben wurden .

Das wuchs nicht auf meinem Mist , Quelle : "Die bayer. Orden und Ehrenzeichen" , G.Schreiber , 1964 .

Deshalb verstehe ich die Diskussion um Deine Spange nicht - Gruß an die Amis .... :-)

Translation: accordinly to the regulation of Nov 10th 1914 had the highest class of MVO replace the MVK and given back to the MVO's chancery. On the other hand different classes of the MVOs and MVKs could be worn together if these orders were awarded in different military campaigns/actions.

The Germans weren't so precise as we want to believe... on the contrary: most of the time lots of exceptions were made (Especially in Bavaria and Saxony where there was and there is still a strong sense of wanting to be indipendend from the Prussians or the central government), because the regulations were so typically complicated (I am myself a Swiss public functionary and I do know what I am speaking about). No army in the world had in WWI and WWII such a complicated systems of different states (in WWI), Waffenfarben und -gattungen, different specifications and description of branch and rank.. call it efficient! It was pure caos. And who cared to implement rules when in 90% of times there were exceptions which confirmed the rules? Come on...

That's why I don't understand the skeptical attitude towards my bar.

Just my 2 cents...

Ciao,

Claudio

[webr55]

Translation: accordinly to the regulation of Nov 10th 1914 had the highest class of MVO replace the MVK and given back to the MVO's chancery. On the other hand different classes of the MVOs and MVKs could be worn together if these orders were awarded in different military campaigns/actions.
Claudio

Claudio,
Bavarians have always been a bit odd, I think we will all agree on that ...
But yet, given all you have said, from which two different campaigns is this guy supposed to have got his two MVKs? Colonial? But then - only a IX long service, when, say, 1913-1919 would have counted as 12 already? And where is the colonial medal?

Regards
Chris

[Klaus O.]

Chris,

It was stated "campaigns" not "wars"... during WORLD War I there were lots of different theatres of operations and campaigns going on (Western front, Eastern Front, Balcan Front, Palestine front, Atlantic sea war, Italian Front, Baltic Front... you name it!). Maybe he got the MKVs in completely different places during different campaigns in WWI.

The bottom line is that many German collectors who I know personally (some of them are specialized on Bavarian orders and medals) are quite happy with this medal bar. Only here on this forum there are more "German medal and ribbon bars regulations integralists" than in Germany... that's quite funny that Americans are more concerned about following stricktly German rules than the Germans themselves! That's a strange world...

Ciao,

Claudio

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

I like it, it appears to be very tight, evenly aged, and well-constructed. I recently purchased a bar that was deemed "impossible" or "unlikely" to some, and it had me me doubting for a while. After running it past a couple of gentlemen with nearly eighty years of experience between them in this field, I completely feel comfortable with it and am thoroughly convinced that it is good. I think we say "never" and "impossible" way too much on this forum. We are using today's reasoning and logic from a collector's point of view-not from the recipient's point of view, this same logic may not have been the same nearly a hundred years ago.

[stogieman]

I have always enjoyed.........

........ the really snotty attitude of some collectors. The "I have been collecting longer than you so you don't know what you're talking about" attitude. it is a wonder to me that in the modern era of free exchange of information and opinion, there will always be some people who are so rigid in their beliefs. It seems your German collector friends are more rigid in their adherence to their own thoughts and experiences than the soldiers themselves who were bound by official regulations. I think the min ute you just start accepting every variation that comes down the pike with the attitude of "Hey, they might have done that" you open the door for the dilution of what is real, with a heavy dose of what is probably not. If you re-read this entire thread, you will see that it was NOT just a simple case of a flouting of the regulations of the wearing the BMVK with this bar.

Please Note my initial post:
".... I do not think this bar is correct.....
A) Straight top & bottom
B) Brass plate, pin and catch with generic red wool backing
C) no, no, no with the placement of the BMVKs
D) Cannot wear two grades of the same class! A second & a third, sure...
but never, never, never two 2. kl, or 2 3. kl. or 2 1. kl.
E) Badly folded and not right furl to the ribbons
F) Bavarian Long Service, but no Jubilee Medal??? (OK, this is not so bad)"

Having said all this, as well as repeating my earlier reasons for not liking the bar, I was surprised, yet quite pleased, to see this thread come back up because I could not find it earlier this year when this following photo appeared on eBay Germany. So yes, I will eat crow and never say never. here we have a Bavarian officer wearing not one, not two, but three (3) different grades of the Bavarian Military Merit Order & Cross on the same bar. However, please note that it is actually 3 different classes of the Order, not two versions of the same class.........

Perhaps your German collector friends would be willing to share with us all their examples of bars where a Bavarian wore 2 (or more) different versions of the same class of the award in photographs, or actual bars?

[Daniel Murphy]

I have to agree with Rick on one point, the way the ribbons are folded. As for the metal, I have seen brass backs with steel fasteners and steel backs with brass fasteners, why not brass with brass? I did have a bar like that once and it was 100% real. Secondly, the owner of the bar was perhaps not still in the service and he did not care about regulations because he would not be under scrutiny. No TR medals would reenforce this belief. Third, IMHO, I believe that the bar is original but that it was modified during its original period of use (while the vet was alive). Since the MVKXC has magnetic swords it must have been made very late and it is possible the that the Kaiser abdicated before he could return the other and then saw no need. Some of these things we will never know. So I say, I know it is not regulation, but it is from the period and if you like it, then that is all that matters. Just be prepared to justify it if you ever have to sell it, and you will probably no be able to get top dollar from an educated collector.
Dan Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

Rick,
The bar in that photo is regulation though MVO4th, MVK2nd (or first) and MVK 3rd. That is kosher as far as the regs go. No seconds of the same class.
Dan Murphy

[Frosch]

An example of the MVO4X and MVK3XKr being worn together with an EK2 on one bar.

This is Bavarian Pionier-Leutnant der Reserve Näher. The photo was probably taken some time after he was awarded his MVO4X in February 1918 and before he received his silver wound badge in October 1918. Besides all his paperwork and award documents, I also have a ribbon bar and his three-place medal bar with ribbons and clips to hold the three awards, but not the bar or awards shown in the picture.

/David

[stogieman]

Well, I did say that........

......... in the post with my photo, "...... three (3) different grades of the Bavarian Military Merit Order & Cross on the same bar. However, please note that it is actually 3 different classes of the Order, not two versions of the same class........."


I think this is a really good place to bring up several points. We each need to make decisions about what we collect and ultimately, what we are willing to accept. Claudio's bar may very well be 100% real. He's happy with it, apparently some people in Germany are happy with it. But, (isn't there always a but?) a novice or intermediate collector should be looking at this bar with great big bells ringing....... there are multiple reasons, as previously stated, to consider the bar as "wrong". So far, there have been very few (fact based) reasons to consider the bar as "right".

Regarding "Advanced Collectors"....... I don't buy for a minute that by virtue of "time-in' this somehow grants someone authority and/or expertise by simple virtue of the time. The serious collector (IMO) never stops learning, never stops questioning and is constantly researching his (or her) chosen subject. An "Advanced Collector" should be someone who has done serious research and pursuit of the subject matter at hand....... not simply collected over the past 20 years as many of us have. there is no shortage of "Advanced Collectors" and/or "dealers" who have been ripped to shreds in forums because they did not know even half of what they professed to be "experts" on.........

Here's a great example: recently, an acknowledged and respected dealer (let's call him dealer A) offered a Medal Bar for sale belonging to General "X".... A US Dealer (me) bought it after a few questions in which dealer A cited "Advanced Collector/dealer B" as his source and reference point. Now knowing both these fellows reputations, I bought the bar. Guess what? They were both wrong. it was absolutely impossible for it to have belonged to the General in question, or for that matter, any general........ Everyone screwed the pooch on this one. Dealer B just kind of shrugged, dealer A was seriously P/O'd at me and then (eventually) himself after doing his own homework (like I should have done too) and everyone was left with egg on their collective faces...... See, everyone makes mistakes. Everyone.

I'd love to see a bar that came out of Peterson, Ludwigson or Colson's collection that has 2 versions of the same grade of the BMVK on it..... but I don't think you'll find one.....

I'd love to see some original period photos of Bavarians wearing the same.... But as way back when, when this discussion started, I have yet to see anyone offer up said proof...............

Regulations are regulations. yes, they were routinely flouted for a multitude of reasons. Some in a small way and some very flagrant ones too. But you have to ask yourself, do you wish to collect pieces that you will have to constantly defend and/or explain???????? I would suggest that this is not such a good idea.

[stogieman]

Frosch....

....... again with your example, we have two (2) different classes of this award, not two grades of the same class....

[Frosch]

Stogieman

Thanks for pointing that out, but I realised that before positing the image and correctly identified the awards. However, if you feel the image is off-topic, then it doesn't belong here.

/David

[stogieman]

David!!

I don't think it's off topic at all and extremely relevant....... we keep seeing evidence of what would be construed as "right", not what would prove a flouting of regulations pertaining to the MVK/MVO.
I think it's a great picture and further illustrates what I've been saying all along.
Sorry for my "short" reply.

[landsknechte]

If this was the bar of an "especially proud Bavarian" that chose to break the rules, why didn't he put both MVK's in front of the EK, and why did he put a Bavarian decoration (the long service) after foreign decorations?