URGENT help 1870 EK1

[Marc Garlasco]

All,
I would like to grab this ASAP if folks think she is real. I have long dreampt of having such a cross. But I am always wary about the Wagners...Please let me know.
Marc

[Tim Tezer]

Looks like a perfect textbook example to me.


Tim

[Marc Garlasco]

Thanks Tim, anyone else?
Marc

[Tiger 1]

I also like it. I had an identical one that was unmarked with the side hooks that I sold to finance the Godet EKI that I now have in my collection.

Nice EKI!

Tony

[Marc Garlasco]

Thanks gents, I have spent the afternoon comparing it to all photos I could find, but you all are my sanity check! I placed the order, just hope I was first.
Regards,
Marc

[Biro]

I agree that this indeed looks like what is regarded as THE textbook I Wagner 1870 issue...but something is a little odd here....

This is the EXACT same piece that I posted here Detlevs' 1870 ek1. CASED!!!!..... - (see the name scratched onto the back, etc......) which was sold by Detlev about 6 months ago for over Euro 4,000...

In addition to that, the case is different. Check the picture of the cross and case when it was on Detlevs site (below) ....and compare it to the one on Helmuts site. The gold has returned to the cross motif on the lid, there is a stain on the inside of the lid, and the material hinge has all but disintegrated...

I'm presuming Weitze didn't buy it direct from Detlev, or logically, he would be selling it well over the price he is offering it at (Euro 3,800.00) ....so why would whoever bought it from Detlev so recently sell it to another dealer for (presumably) much less than he paid for it??????....and why is the case different...??????

I would be overjoyed to own this piece, but I would certainly have PLENTY of questions for Herr Weitze......


Marshall

[Marc Garlasco]

I am going to ask ASAP!

[mravery]

This is why I love this forum

Lets make sure we keep the dealers in line !



Cheers
Mark

[Marc Garlasco]

The butler did it!

Marshall,

After HOURS of further detailed analysis I strongly agree, AND disagree with you. It is certainly the same cross - there is no denying that. But it is also the same case, and in the same condition. Let me explain. In Detlev's photo he used a strong flash that washed out the details - such as the gold - on the case, and some scratches. When you rotate the Weitze image and line them up you will see what I am talking about. Further, Detlev cunningly photographed the case at an angle where the minor tear does not show. Weitze just laid it down. If you look at the Detlev photo there is no way you would see the hinge area at that angle.

The question we should then ask is since this is, without a question, the same cross and case, who killed the victim in what room and with what instument. Sorry - was just playing with my daughter. I meant, WHY is this being sold WITHOUT the Niemann expertisen??? It would indicate that for some reason the guy turned it around rather quickly, for a loss, without complete documentation.

I will ask Weitze. Let's see.

Warmest regards, and my sincere thanks for pointing out this interesting mystery!

Marc

[Marc Garlasco]

Almost forgot - as for the stain, that certainly may have developed in the intervening time.

Marc

[mravery]

Keep in mind that I'm sure that these dealers buy, sell and trade between each other as well....

Perhaps Weitze was the one that originally bought it from Detlev ???

Cheers
Mark

[Biro]

Marc...

Whatever the situation with the case, I hope you get this piece. I've watched with interest as, over the months, you've hunted down a good'un.....and you have just found it!

There is an extremely nice cased 1870 EK2 also on Weitzes site...in my opinion, a Godet. I have the 1st class 1870 Godet equivalent.....

I dare you to go for the pair!!! - You'll never have to upgrade again!

Of course, then I'll have to come an burgle you but hey - all's fair in love and (um...) 'war'....

Marshall

[Marc Garlasco]

Biro,

I had considered it! But then I have to sell too much of my collection to cover. Oh the pain!

Marc

[Marc Garlasco]

Update

Gents,
Here is a message from Detlev:
-------------------------------------------
Yes Marc, I believe this is the same cross
well done, not expensive
detlev
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And I just spoke to Witze. He said there was a mad rush for the cross but I got it!!! Thanks to the forum for the help and I will post pics when I get it.
Marc

[Marc Garlasco]

As an aside, he said the same collector had sold him the cased bavarian pilots and observer badges and in all his time he has never had such items for sale. The guy needed the money and we can all benefit!
Marc