Ribbon bar with Saxon Honor Cross - ID (im)possible?

[webr55]

Hello all,
here's my recent pickup from stogieman:





EK, Oldenburg FA Cross, Hindenburg Cross, Long Service 12 + 4 yrs, Saxon Honor Cross

The backing is grey.

Unfortunately, I am at a complete loss here. I could find this guy neither in the Reichsheer (looked through the 1924 and 1931 lists) nor in the Reichsmarine (1923 and 1930). What kind of unit could he have been in? The Saxon Honor Cross (apparently sometimes SKz, sometimes SEK?) - is rare, what types received this award? Rear area? A paymaster, maybe? Or even a doctor?
Also, if he had 12 years of service and if he was not in the Reichsheer, he must have served before WWI, dismissed after the war, and then recalled?
Any help is appreciated!

Thanks
Chris

[Rick Research]

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[webr55]

I would expect the last ribbon to be a peacetime Albert Order-Knight 2nd Class. Since this guy only had "12" (nice Schickle eagles, BTW), that means he had less than 18 real years in as of 1939, so 8 to 13 Imperial by 1920 and 4 to 6 from whenever recalled circa 1935 + or - to be 12 to 17 years in 1939.

The typically South German style is unusual but not unheard of elsewhere.

I would say most emphatically NOT an official, For some reason, dim bells are ringing that suggest either cavalry or artillery. I have not had the time to devote to a possibly fruitless task in tracking this down, since with ONLY a SA3b showing in 1914, and no way to know what such possible list of holders who can't be excluded from published rolls got during the war, it's a Long Term Project.

A Guards officer would have been the most likely to have a nice shiny enamel Order with the least peacetime service in, but initial flipping of "Chef" units, and Oldenburg troop units didn't turn up an easy match.

It is NOT without hope. Navy can be excluded.

Ups! Back to start. I thought this was a Saxon Honor Cross. Damn this messy ("wurstelige") South-German style!
Up to 17 years of service, of course . So I suppose I should start by collecting the lone SA3b's from the prewar lists and from Autengruber? And have a look into the Reichsheer again.
I guess this guy was not in a Saxon unit during war, otherwise he would have had more Saxon awards?

Thanks
Chris

[Rick Research]

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[webr55]

Exactly: someone who was ONLY a Leutnant before the war in 1914-- and a very JUNIOR Leutnant at that. NO military or police service between 1920 and 1933, so no place to check an (E) officer with 12.

I haven't found ANY Leutnants yet with a SA3b who were (E) officers-- but then MANY 1914 peacetime awards were never gazetted.

It will be tough. Hope is slim-- but not completely impossible. It is certainly a unique combination....
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I had a closer look at the last ribbon. If this is the Albert Order, then they used the wrong ribbon. This one definitely has a white stripe in the MIDDLE, then two rather wide green stripes and finally two white narrow stripes on the outer edge.
It doesn't really look like a Saxon Honor Cross either, because then the two green stripes would have to be thinner.
It LOOKS rather like either a Sachsen-Altenburg bravery medal or a Saxon Long Service Award. Neither makes sense, though. Saxon Long Service can be ruled out completely, and the Altenburg medal should be before the Hindenburg cross. So it has to be the Saxon Honor Cross after all, because it would fit from precedence?



Thanks
Chris

[webr55]

Now here's a closeup of the last ribbon:



Doesn't this look like a Saxon Honor Cross?

Chris

[Rick Research]

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[webr55]

Well, with the previously invisible white center stripe, in that place it can only be a saxon long service award.

Robert Noss has certainly shown us numerous photos of INCORRECT wear of Wehrmacht AND Imperial military long service awards.

Orrrrr, it is the Saxon Reserve-Landwehr Medal, for some sort of Beamter who held nominal Saxon Army reserve officer status (long enough to get this) but nothing else. I find SEVERAL examples of Naval Intendance officials with saxon "LD2" awards... and NOTHING from Saxony for WW1, but no match to this bar.

I'd say some sort of NAVAL official. Without the MEDAL bar, impossible to ever know when a ribbon was used for MANY different awards, what it actually was.

Rick,
I think this is it! The Saxon Landwehr DA. What I did not know, is that they apparently changed the ribbon for the Landwehr DA 2 in 1913. Before 1913, it was like this (I hope, Helmut Weitze doesn't mind me using his scans):

But from 1913-1918, it was like this:



Note the difference in the width of the two outer white stripes. Mine is like the 1913 one, with rather narrow outer white stripes.
This is the only ribbon that makes sense in last place on this post-1934 - and especially well-made - ribbon bar. As the guy most probably was not in a Saxon unit during WWI, he must have got his LW DA in 1913 - and was so proud of it, he insisted on showing it still after 1934.
Could be an official, I agree. You think navy because of the OK2? So is the grey backing possible for a navy official? Could he have been an army official as well?

Regards
Chris

[Rick Research]

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[webr55]

Some further detective work...

With ribbons-only, we may never be able to tell-- too many variables of a ribbon that could be too many things!! SOMEWHERE out there is the matching medal bar! And from THAT, All Would Be Resolved....
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I just couldn't let this case rest. I had to FIND this guy!!

So now I proceed on the following assumptions:
1) The last ribbon must be the Saxon Reserve/Landwehr medal. I find it improbable (though examples exist, I admit) that someone in active Wehrmacht service screwed up his bar with wrong long service awards or Saxon Altenburg Bravery in wrong place.
2) This guy was not an official, but rather a reserve officer in WWI. He was discharged after WWI, while a career official would have RATHER remained in service. Also, the combination suggests maybe a technical type, but not a typical official (no War Aid Cross, comb EK). In the 30s, he went back to Wehrmacht service as an officer. Someone recalled as an official is - I think - rather improbable. Many "rathers", I admit.
3) He was a Saxon, but not in the Saxon army during WWI (no other Saxon awards).
4) This ribbon folding style is mostly found in South Germany.
5) The eagles are - thanks Rick! - of a very characteristic type made only by Otto Schickle in Pforzheim. Could this provide a clue??

[webr55]

First, I looked into the Navy 1913 list. There are only two "Marineintendantur" officials with nothing but a Saxon Landwehr DA: Dr. Artur Lehmann (born 1871) and Dr. Georg Meyer (born 1880). Both too old and too much service time, I think.

So what about the Prussian army ranklist 1913? Here, we find about 20 mostly technical types with only a Saxon Landwehr DA. They are almost all in support units like "Verkehrstruppen", "Telegraphenbataillon" or "Eisenbahn-Regiment". There is one other, a Regiments-Baumeister Kickler in Allenstein, but I couldn't find further trace of him. The others are stationed in Saxony, but not in Saxon units. Apparently these technical "Train-" units belonged to the Prussian army.
So I end up with a list of circa 20 names.

[webr55]

Next thing was to compare the 1939 RL for matching captains (E) or majors (E) in Wehrmacht service. Problem is, some of the names are very common. BUT - I hoped that the Schickle connection would prove useful...

... and I think it might have done: Nearly all recalled captains of majors (E) with matching last names were either in Saxony or in Prussia.

All except ONE. No other comes near.
Could it be??

In 1913, there was an Oberleutnant Franke as a Saxon reserve officer (with only an SLD2) in the Prussian Telegraphen-Bataillon Nr.1.
In 1939, we find a Hauptmann (E) Franke in the Nachrichten-Abteilung 36 in Neustadt/Weinstrasse.

The unit matches. Telegraphen- and Nachrichtenabteilung.
The rank matches.
The ribbon bar style matches. Neustadt is in the Pfalz, which used to be part of Bavaria.
AND: The location matches. Neustadt is not far from Pforzheim! Quite easy to imagine he got his bar from Schickle.

Mystery resolved??

I admit:
a) The Schickle connection is thin.
b) I don't know how he might have got the Oldenburg.

But still, I think some points add up here. It's the best solution I have at the moment.

Regards
Chris

[Daniel Krause]

Sounds good!
But just an idea, what if this is someting Foreign? The Italian Medal for the Earthquake in Messina in 1908 has a quite similar ribbon. MAYBE it is this? I say this because there was a grouping with this medal some time ago at eBay and on a ribbon bar they also used a Saxon long service ribbon as "closest to"-ribbon.

Best regards

Daniel

[webr55]

Huh? Messina? The ribbon looks a little different, but you mean they simply took the Saxon DA because it came closest?
But still, he would have to be navy. It seems mine was not, at least not in the 30s (grey backing, South German style, Pforzheim). A navy officer in service in 1908, discharged 1919 and recalled to army service in the 30s? Somehow, I find this odd.
Another but: I strongly assume the Messina ribbon was not worn after 1914/15. But would someone have got it out of his closet in the 30s, just because it looked as if the Italians were now on the "right" side?
So has anyone got a picture of the Messina ribbon in wear after WWI? Or a pic of that ebay grouping?

[webr55]

Let me rephrase my question: Do we have proof of ANY pre-1914 foreign (but not neutral or friendly) ribbon being banned in WW1 and then re-worn during the TR?

Regards
Chris