Turkish/ Gallipoli Star fake or not fake ?

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

the asterisk mark struck on the pin is the typical Austrian pre-1918 mark for non-precious metal.

In my opinion, the maker of that Harp Madalyası was an Austrian one, supplying other jewellers (firms like Zimbler and Brüder Schneider, both from Vienna, did that usually).

Difficult to say though, if the Turkish decoration is in that Gera case since its origin or not.

Best wishes,

E.L.

[Motorhead]

I don't know close to nothing about these decoration-but you can find this kind of asterix at the '14 Iron crosses 1st class made by Zimmermann(the ones with blued core) .
Micha

[römischIX]

yes they are known micha.

[90th Light]

Thank to everyone who has commented so far,

I am finding the discussion and points raised very interesting.

Firstly a special thanks to "Gew44" for the comparative images between my award and the known fake. I was not trying to blantantly question Don's judgement on that, although this is how it might have unintentionally appeared.

Instead it was the first example with the mark on the pin that I found in my search for more information on WAF. I was confused about why it had been declared bad. I can now clearly see the differences and I have subsequently found other threads about the originals with the star on the pin. That one is thus now laid to rest and your comparative shots are a useful reference to anyone else reading this thread to answer that question.

As for the case, I am taking on board the questions being raised. Many of them have also crossed my mind. "Raithel" might in fact only be the distributor. One question, What is the horizontal squiggle design under his name "J. Raithel" but above the title "Hofgoldschmied". Is that just a nouveau design to enchance the brand or is that his name in Turkish ?

In regard to the question of the lower fitted section of the case being married up with a period case, I can not answer with absolute precision for the following reasons. All I can add is my observations so far.

1/ The case appears to be a generic type jewellers case from the time before and during WW1. I like the crossed hatch effect that one often sees on WW1 EK1 cases from that time. The catch is typical of award cases made before and during WW1 but not so much after when the springy push button became the norm.

2/ The lower fitted section is very securely attached to the case. I gently ran a blunt knief blade around the edge to see if it might lift out. It will not with out using real force and possibly causing damage. The lower fitted section is made of something solid. The medal shape is almost perfectly centered and the velvet covering is real quality typical of that time.

3/ The aging of the lower fitted section and the case perfectly match each other. The velvet covering is very clean and white around the edge where it has not been exposed to use, light and wear. The lower fitted section and the case have been together for a very, very long time. Also the medal has been sitting in that case for a long time as well. There are traces of verdigris and tarnishing where the medal has sat quietly in the case unattended for a considerable period.

4/ The case would appear to be a manufacturer/ distributor solution to the need for a case at the time. It is perhaps not an official award case because it does not have a discription or symbol on the top of the box to show what the award is.

It would appear that they did not have an official case in Germany for the "Eiserner Halbmond". Each maker appears to have developed their own case to issue this award in. I base this observation on the fact that every period case that I have seen are variations, quite different from each other. Some have been red, some black and this is the second brown example. Some have a Turkish badge/ symbol on the top but others do not. Then again, EK cases from WW1 also vary quite a bit. I have got both black and brown examples with a range of colours of velvet on the fitted section when it comes to those.

5/ Sadly the Imperial records from "Gera" have been lost according to those who collect Imperial German flight badges & information about German air aces. Thus we do not know exactly who J.Raithel was and if they actually made badges or not.

I can not say more except, the medal and case will be staying together and the search for more information will continue. This fitted case for a (Turkish) Eiserner Halbmond is both an interesting and rare find in more ways than one,

Chris

[Don D.]

Good comments and observations from all. The mystery will eventually be solved.

[90th Light]

Looks like Raithel made or distributed other medals. Here is an auction description that I just found,

Chris

Silberne Verdienstmedaille mit Schwertern 1. WK
Waldeck, im orig. Etui J. Raithel Hofgoldschmied Gera, Z 1 - 2, L 3,5 cm.

Dieses Objekt wurde in einer früheren Auktion angeboten. Die Details sind nur für registrierte Benutzer nur mit Archiv-Zugang einsehbar; der Archiv-Zugang ist nicht gratis.

Wir haben keine Information darüber, ob Objekte, die in früheren Auktionen nicht verkauft wurden, heute noch erhältlich sind.

[90th Light]

J.Raithel also made or distruted silverware and it appear that they may have had a manufacturers silver mark,

Chris

Nr 414, Auktion 62, 14.10.2010

M.H. Wilkens & Söhne, Hemelingen

Zwölf Mokkalöffel, um 1904

Silber, Stiele mit Blumenrankenumrandung, Kellen vergoldet. Bez.: Herstellerstempel, 800, Mond, Krone, RAITHEL (Vertrieb). Originale Schatulle des Hofgoldschmieds J. Raithel, Gera.

[90th Light]

I might have found their business address and description;

Raithel, Ernst Julius (F. J. Raithel), Gold und Silberarbeiter, Johannisgasse 3.
- Hermann Franz, Fleischer, Bachgasse 4.

It is located in this publication;

31.12.1879 Wer wohnte wo in Gera
<<< zurück zur Chronik

Die Einwohner der Haupt- und Residenzstadt Gera im Jahre 1879


Chris

[demir]

Not so fast. We did the same leap with the AS triangle PAB based on one example found in a packet marked A D Schwerdt. There are several possibilities.

1. This is the original star in its case.

2. The star has been married to this case sometime in the last 100 years....

3. This jeweller is just a distributor and he got this item from Austria (Gera being nearer the border than to Berlin/other place with German makers)

4. The case is bogus.

5. ????

6. ????

I think we need to examine this further before we can pin it down.......

Hi,

1.The MAHLAS is very badly made it is rare to see mahlas' this shape. Usually known makers and even unknown ones did not produce medals with Mahlas' like this one shown in pic. 1
2. Asterisk means that it is not made of precious metal but it may also mean that it is made for use in Austria. It might have been produced in Austria (most probably) or produced in Germany to export to Austria.
Regards

[Don D.]

Thoughts on this one then?

[Don D.]

Oblique.

[römischIX]

Good but bad conditioned..

[Tan Berk]

Honest wear and tear, I love it all around Don. Would you add it to the * thread hen you have time ?

[saschaw]

2. Asterisk means that it is not made of precious metal but it may also mean that it is made for use in Austria. It might have been produced in Austria (most probably) or produced in Germany to export to Austria.

I honestly don't know why the C. F. Zimmermann firm from Pforzheim, Germany, did use this asterisk mark, but I don't believe all these Turkish War Medals and also 1st class Iron Crosses were meant to be sold to Austria-Hungary. It just doesn't make sense, in the numbers they appear...

[Montgomery Burns]

Hello Chris, nice to meet you,
the correct mark on pin is * the Austrian marking mark for "no precious metal made", this is visible also on EKII ring.

Also the symbol or inscription inside the botton is different and all, on fake, appear put over the gloss enamel

First have also incorrect background respect the original, I post pics just to explain better what I meant.

This ever from my personal field experience, not is for sure the verb. and hope this help somebody

Your Gallipoli Star with box is a perfect example of that decorations.

the correct mark on pin is * the Austrian marking mark for "no precious metal made", this is visible also on EKII ring.

Hy ,,,can you give me the source,,your using for the marking as I do not find it in my book ,,



regards kay