Flieger abzeichen for review

[Jelle M.]

Hi guys,
what do you think?
Is this one original? Estimated value?

Greetings!

[phild]

IMO it is original pre 1945. I could not say if it is pre-1919 or not......my guess is that it could be from WWI or the 1920s/30s.

I think that it is made on Juncker dies. Hopefully others will have more information on this exact variation of this stamped type badge....as they can be found in in plated steel (or mild iron??) plated brass or tombak and solid German Silver/Alpaka.

They can also be found with shorter and longer pin set ups...I would consider this one more of the shorter set up types.

[Jelle M.]

Seller told me it's from around 1913, he's a reliable source! I did business before with him and it was always correct & original. Don't know anything about the material.
Thanx for the help so far phil!!!
Hope that there are more experts

[phild]

Seller told me it's from around 1913, he's a reliable source! I did business before with him and it was always correct & original. Don't know anything about the material.
Thanx for the help so far phil!!!
Hope that there are more experts

I have no basis to dispute the claim that it is early. There are some characteristics about it that would support that claim IMO. I simply do know for myself. I am waiting on the new book by Steve P. and hoping that it may shed some light on dating the variations of these badges. I know that dating them has been a very controversial area for a long time......even determining what is real and what is not has been pretty heated....but I think that we are getting on past that debate in recent years.

[luftkrieg]

.

[jaba-the-hunt]

Seller told me it's from around 1913, he's a reliable source! I did business before with him and it was always correct & original. Don't know anything about the material.
Thanx for the help so far phil!!!
Hope that there are more experts

The pilot badge was founded 1913. On the foundation it is mentioned that the badge is made of silver.

All issued badges from 1913/14 and maybe later were made of silver.

This one is a late period badge when silver was no more use.

Regards

Alex

[Jelle M.]

The pilot badge was founded 1913. On the foundation it is mentioned that the badge is made of silver.

All issued badges from 1913/14 and maybe later were made of silver.

This one is a late period badge when silver was no more use.

Regards

Alex

Very useful information thank you for that.
Anyone with a price suggestion? Seller is asking 300€...

[Mike Kenny]

For a nice honest clique badge (imo late war to 20s), 300Euro is a very fair price - jump on it quick imo!

Regards
Mike

[phild]

The pilot badge was founded 1913. On the foundation it is mentioned that the badge is made of silver.

All issued badges from 1913/14 and maybe later were made of silver.

This one is a late period badge when silver was no more use.

Regards

Alex

Again I do not disagree, but I am not clear as to what metal this example is made of. The pin assembly is clearly brass based metal, but I am not sure about the badge itself as can see no base metal showing through a plating. Could this be made of Alpaka (Alpacca) which is close to so called "German Silver" (I realize that metal contains no actual silver) and did the 1913 regs really specify REAL silver as being required or did the regs used the word silver as a color rather than an actual metal composition?

[jaba-the-hunt]

Yes it specify real silver as material. This was common at that time period. Gold and silver are the most used material for decoration and awards at that time.

I go a step forward and suggest that early pieces were hollow plated

Regards

Alex

[phild]

Yes it specify real silver as material. This was common at that time period. Gold and silver are the most used material for decoration and awards at that time.

I go a step forward and suggest that early pieces were hollow plated

Regards

Alex

Alex,

By hollow plated I take it that you are saying they were like the Juncker 800 marked hollow (front and back plate soldered together) badges?

[Mike Swan]

Rob Pandis's recent publication, "Imperial German Flight Badges" is also a very useful reference. It extensively covers known fakes.

Mike

[Mike Kenny]

Again I do not disagree, but I am not clear as to what metal this example is made of. The pin assembly is clearly brass based metal, but I am not sure about the badge itself as can see no base metal showing through a plating. Could this be made of Alpaka (Alpacca) which is close to so called "German Silver" (I realize that metal contains no actual silver) and did the 1913 regs really specify REAL silver as being required or did the regs used the word silver as a color rather than an actual metal composition?

Have you tried a magnet on it?

[juoneen]

I think it is authentic, price is fair, but the photos IMO do not do this badge justice . I believe it looks better in person or in hand than in the photos(too much light) Seems to have wear, and age, just dont clean it up any more. Backs usually show more patina....but like He said....snag it , and then take some better shots .

this badge has slightly different details than the first one I have shown here , but I also believe there were several makers . I like the leaves to be more pimply , but may just have been this particular makers rendition.

Below I have one that was converted to a solidback from a hollowback , and has the same metal bleeding through from wear. Just because they call it a pilots badge in silver, doesn't mean its made of silver IMO. Most all of the "issue" types like this i have seen have the same type finish similar to frosting , and was plated or washed . Silver badges in silver could be ordered at companys who made awards for private purchase, but like blood wings to paratroopers in WW2, the issue badge would likely be the one worn if any in combat, and yet still cherished (also they were cheaper to replace or lose)

I like the front details , we see less good badges of the issue type now surfacing , and I haven'tseen any hollowbacks ever marked , anywhere on pin or badge. The ones you have to watch out for are the marked type privately purchased . This type is MY favorite , and most of them were snagged by allied soldiers whenever possible . I give it a thimbs up. IMO.

No need for an expert , compare the details yourself of one of mine:

and another less pimply THAT WAS CONVERTED TO SOLID BACK)

this is the converted one (front above and back below) solidback , note the SAME METAL on the hook wearing through on the hook, and the front leaves on the high spots where wear is present sticking through(zoom in second badge front shown , as first and second are two different makers first being different from your type(both originals): I believe this second less pimply leaved type is the closest to the one you have I have if it hadn't been converted to a solidback(interesting variation of your original "issue" badge)it would have looked the same as yours , and 100% original (so is yours IMO)....now R U N N - O F T, and snag it today (I do not think you can lose on this one)Cheers!.

[jaba-the-hunt]

Alex,

By hollow plated I take it that you are saying they were like the Juncker 800 marked hollow (front and back plate soldered together) badges?

Yes, i mean this badges.

Just because they call it a pilots badge in silver, doesn't mean its made of silver IMO.

I think the early issued pieces were made of silver. On the regulations for the see pilot badge from 1913 it is mentioned that the badge should be of SILVER gilded.

Regards

Alex